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Steve

Your comment about CS Lewis reminded me on the first letter to Wormwood from his Uncle Screwtape: "He doesn't think of doctrine as primarily 'true' or 'false', but as 'academic' or 'practical', 'outworn' or 'comtemporary', 'conventional' or 'ruthless'. Jargon, not argument, is your best ally in keeping him from the Church."

Both Joel and Tony practice the art of Jargon with effective results.

Chris Rosebrough

Steve - GREAT comment and great quote!

Micah

I am currently taking a marketing course at the University I attend. In the text that I have to read there is a section speaking about "People's Views of the Universe"...Here are some exerts from the text...."Although most Americans practice religion, religious conviction and practice have been dropping off gradually through the years....'Americans are on a spiritual journey'...'increasingly concerned with the meaning of life and issues of the soul and spirit. The journey can encompass religion, but is as much more likely to take the form of...'spiritual individaulism'...This new spiritualism affects consumers in everything from television shows they watch and the books they read to the products and services they buy...Tapping into this heightened sensitivity presents a unique marketing opportunity for brands." (Armstrong, Gary. "Marketing: An Introduction". page 99.). Both Olsteen and Robbins are selling a product and are taping into this new market of "Individaul Spirituality" or self-worship.

Steve

Micah, is "self-worship" the worship of the self or individual worship compared to corporate worship?

Micah

I think it has to do with an individaul building their own religion that makes them feel good from the different ideas that they encounter in other religions...so they would be worshipping something that they created. I don't know if that would be worshiping themselves or just their creation.

Steve

So if one creates a religion that makes them feel good, then I would view that as a religion of the self.

Sinful man will reject Christianity since we accept the fact that we are by nature sinful and only through Christ do we find any merit with God. There's nothing "feel good" about Christianity.

Micah

I guess real Christianity is to narrow minded, and makes you feel like a complete sinner. I can agree with that....thanks for building on my answer. I wasn't really sure how to describe it as clearly. So a man makes his own path...he would then be worshiping him-self and the works of his own intellect and hands...ie he is his own god. Does that sound about right.

Steve

Christianity is only narrow minded when one doesn't like the fact that the only way to God is through Christ. It's Christ who stated that he is "the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father but through me"

Only when we view God as not as holy, then we can appease him with our actions.

Micah

Thanks Steve...That was a great comment and one we all need to remember as we walk with him. There is only one way, and it is through Jesus that we are able to come to the Father. The sin that infected us by Adam and passed down to all of us is washed with the blood of our savior Jesus Christ! As I walk on campus today I will remember your comments and take them to heart as I pass the Interfaith Chapel that my University felt it needed to build in order to attract new customers and make them feel good. Take care and God Bless you Steve....Micah

jim

Anthony Robbins and Joel Osteen are right. God created our psyches to respond to what we believe and say about ourselves. "You have not because you ask not." "Just say the word and it shall be done." Proverbs 23:7 — "For as he thinks within himself so he is."

Mark

In James 4:2 the Bible says: "You have not because you ask not"

But in James 4:3 the Bible also says:

"You ask and do not receive, because you ask amiss that you may consume it upon your lusts"

Will

NIV Proverbs 23:7 says "for he is hte kind of man who is always thinking about the cost." so Jim who posted 10.23.06 made up his quote and needs a new bible.

fras

great post - thanks for the info! I found a great post in his biography elsewhere *finds link* anthony robbins biography its a good read for anyone interested! Take care - Fraser

Jim Galiano

There are biblical principles that deal with speaking to mountains and believing in the power of God - today. In the end, however, positive affirmations won't change your life unless Jesus Christ is the focal point of your beliefs.

These type of teachings alone won't bring anyone lasting results because the focal point is on your ability to be positive, think positive, act positive, etc.

That in and of itself isn't a bad thing. Of course, teachings can save you. Only Jesus Christ can do that. He's the Vine - we're just the branches.

N Teijeiro

According to Osteen (notice that I didn’t say ‘according to the Bible’), the words you use can either bless your life or curse your life.

If you're going to criticize Joel Osteen, do you research first. The bible is clear about the power of the tongue:

Proverbs 18:21 reads...
Death and life are in the power of the tongue:

Ruben Suarez

All of this is pretty interesting. First religion is satans number one tool to separate people from God. When you have people criticize what bible one reads vs. a newer print bible or if a pastor should wear a robe vs. a polo shirt or if a Christian should not learn sound principles to become better than we have to look at our selves the critic before anything thing or anyone else. There is nothing wrong with becoming better through Anthony Robbins, There is nothing wrong with listening to Joel Osteen. If he can pack a stadium with 70,000 people on Sunday and millions tune in to watch him that would not have gotten the message without him, who are we to criticize when many of those people will end up in a local Christian church. How dare we think we can even attempt to know Gods Plan. I was one who was an Osteen fan and then completely was blown away by his lack of commitment to teach what the bible teaches until one day a true Christian made me look at it this way and I can now watch and enjoy his message. The goal is not religion, the goal is a relationship with Jesus Christ and his word. Once you have that you can see God work through everything and not be or feel threatened. And unlike one writer wrote above. There is an empowering and great life living in a relationship with Jesus, but he is right, there is nothing in religion. Only man made glorifications of the church and man made check points that are no where in the bible.

subcutaneous

This may be part of Pastor Wilken's sermon critique, but I'll ask anyway.

Did Jesus have to die for any of Joel Osteen "messages" to be delivered?

If not, then it is not specifically Christian. Just adding a Bible verse to Robbins-style motivational speeches does not make them Christian messages.

Of course this criteria applies to all preachers, not just JO.

Carlos

Joel Osteen...ja ja ja...Tony Robbins is the authentic man...

Carlos

Joel Osteen es un hombre perdido, él habla de Jesús, pero no tiene fé en El.Tony Robbins es el amo...
Joel Osteen is a lost man, he speaks from Jesús, but he isn´t faith in him. Tony Robbins is the boss...

Biggerpicture

I'm so tired of religious critics attacking the likes of Joel Osteen.
In my view his style of teaching is far more in line with the spirit and teachings of Christ than the narrow minded jealous types who have really missed the point.
It seems that Osteen's calling is to encourage. Also there is nothing wrong with the majority of Anthony Robins teachings. The majority of truths he has discovered are found in the bible anyway.

Some people think a christian message is enough telling people that they are sinners, that Christ died for them and they can be saved. The thing is people need sound teachings that help them live out their lives from there. Which is exactly what Osteen and Robbins type of teachings help provide. To try and use the verse 2 Timothy 4:3 to discredit Oesteen is just wishful thinking. He certainly doesn't fit that verse. This is the one that describes Christ working through these teachers:
John 10:10 (New International Version)

10The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.

So stop playing the thief and let people live life to the full.

John

I never really watched a full sermon of Joel Olsteen's, so I cannot comment on or judge him " Do not judge, for thou shall be judged" Joel seems to be a charasimatic preacher...On the other hand Tony Robbins does nothing for me, for a speaker who tosses water at his audience to "heal them?" - Only God redeems!, only Jesus heals! for those lost souls who trust in man and not our God you still can change your ways!!

Christian

BiggerPicture Wrote: "Some people think a christian message is enough telling people that they are sinners, that Christ died for them and they can be saved. The thing is people need sound teachings that help them live out their lives from there."

Jesus said it all and it's all in the Bible - the parables are sound teachings that could help people live out their lives. But people don't want to read the Bible. They prefer the glossy presentation of the Joels and Anthonys of the world. I have nothing against them - if they are helping people live better lives, give back to the world, help a neighbor, etc., that can only be a good thing. The "Stadium Preachers" in general, make me a little cautious, because to a certain extent, they are using Jesus to make a lot of money for themselves. I prefer to view Joel as a Christian self-help guru, rather than a preacher.

I think "have life to the full" refers to the Kingdom of Heaven, not life here on earth.

I also thinking "judging" people is different than having a personal like or dislike for them. Joel may not be of any interest to me - I may not like him - but that doesn't mean I think he's awful or can't help other people.

In the end, people have to find their own way, whatever that may be. Whatever path they take, if they find Jesus and his teachings and they believe in Jesus as Savior, then how they got there doesn't matter.

For all its shortcomings, I think a world without churches and religion would be sad. I attend church regularly and am always surprised when people are annoyed at Christmas and Easter because the "nonregulars" fill up the pews. All those extra people show up twice a year because they believe. Yes, it's all about our relationship to Jesus. But he's got to love seeing us all come together and sharing his love with one another. If we're not going to share God's love, what's the point? Why get married, have children, or do anything in this life if we don't share God's love?

Colin

What would Jesus say to Joel or Tony? Stop making people happy. Or stop helping people realize their purpose in life. Maybe you should stop your way of teaching and only use what is given.

Do you really think how Jesus teached back then is the same way how a preacher in Texas teaches today? He didn't have a church or a stadium or Vatican City.

Stop complaining and just start spreading God's word to the people in your neighborhood or city. That is what Jesus did and he died for us.

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