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thomas jenkins

How do you Pastor Warren hasn't disciplined him? Is it required in the Bible that a pastor/friend should confront their parishioner/friend publicly for all to see? How do you know Pastor Warren hasn't done his best to confront Murdoch privately?

After all, what's more important here--Murdoch's eternal judgment (as you claim above) or the appeasement of everyone lashing out at him publicly right now? A public confrontation would MAYBE appease a few critics, but how does that change the media mogul's heart? I would argue that a private confrontation is far superior as it actually appeals to the man's heart and not the critics' desires.

Steve

Thomas:

If Mr. Murdoch does not change his behavior after private discipline, Christ instructs us to take it to the Church.

If the pastor is unwilling to take someone under his care, the pastor is not fulfilling his Christ given obligation to care for a sheep of Christ.

I have yet to see any change in NewsCorp.

Connie

Not only should Warren discipline Murdoch, he should get another publisher.

Steve

In my opinion, Zondervan is not a Christian publishing house, but just a part of a large media company targeting a market segment.

Since Pastor Warren is a pastor in the Southern Baptist Church, shouldn't he be using their publishing arm? Given the fact that Saddleback is an SBC (even though they are ashamed by not identifying with the SBC), this makes perfect since. If the SBC doctrinal reviewers do not have any problems with Pastor Warren's materials, then they can publish it. If however, they do find that it does not meet SBC doctrinal position, then Pastor Warren could either revise his books or resign from him call as a Southern Baptist pastor.

I seriously doubt Zondervan will apply the same doctrinal reviews to Pastor Warren's material that the SBC publisher would apply.

Jeff Moulton

So, I'm trying to see where those two verses suggest that it is Rick Warren who should be in charge of disciplining Rupert Murdoch. Unless of course, somewhere along the line Rick Warren was appointed God. Those verses both talk about God's judgment, not man's judgment.

Why don't you let God do his thing, instead of trying to do God's job for him.

Steve

Jeff:

Since a pastor is acting on behalf of Christ, it is his responsiblity to discipline those whom God has placed under his care. A Pastor is a called and ordiened position that is a call from God through the Church.

According to your logic, a member could engage in a public, sexaul affair with another member of the church and the pastor could not do anything about it.

lc

Chris, I see trying to get RW to discipline anyone in any christian capacity, an oxymoron. It would require him to be a good shepard. A good shepard has to follow God's Word and he does not. Claiming christians can wipe out "the big 5" BEFORE CHRIST RETURNS, is calling God a liar. RW has called God a liar in his claim that his global peace plan will work...A false teacher cannot lead,teach or discipline Rupert Murdoch or anyone else. I continue to pray that all eyes are opened. There are many false prophets, teachers and christs. And though it should be no surprize, I am continually astonished how people try to rationalize offences to God, because something "looks" good intentioned, on the surface. Just because someone can tell a good story, doesn't mean it's the truth. And RW's "story" of global peace through RW's self induced vision, couldn't be more contrary to Jesus' words of the state of the world. Jesus said no peace until His return. OT and NT prophets claim the only peace before Jesus' return, will be a FALSE peace, from a FALSE prophet. It would be saving for RW to see how he his just another of many that are false.

Larry - KY

It does seem far fetched, because under most scenarios Saddleback and RW hardly comprise a real church at the present in what they preach and teach and espouse. And I don’t mean that legalistically in a “you have to follow my way of doing church”. If your ear “heard” that legalistically, then you really really really heard it wrong. And I see time and time again how volatile spirited persons on the one hand become inflamed by their passions and legalist “dig in” deep on the other end.

First Issue:

I’ll try to explain as gently and graciously as I can. This is missed a LOT in discussions about ‘what is a true church’ and ‘what can or cannot we do in church’ and why we ought not vary too much but avoid staleness of going through mere motions. I saw it a lot in SB-ism (I’m no longer a SB by the way) among the pastor Vs. congregation when a new “Calvinistic” SB grad from Southern would enter into the world of church congregations down here and attempt to re-assert elder led congregations or confessions. All it mostly leads to is yet another tiresome church split or “you are out the door because we own the building buddy”.

A close friend/pastor of mine ran into this at a church split, my law is better than your law. Later when they reformed one arm of the split he found himself on the dilemma of addressing the same thing the other former pastor addressed badly and legally causing the first split in the first place. It was a microcosm of the history I’ve read with Luther versus Rome on one side and the Anabaptist on the other side. Luther saw it for what it was, another devil’s trick to cover up the Gospel again having just been uncovered by Rome’s glosses. Anyway, we discussed this issue a lot, how do you reform a church group (keep in mind this is in a congregational gov. setting, I understand the difference in Lutheranism and Reformed churches) and not cause a rift. Two BIG issues, and anyone with a history in SB-ism knows this, was how to now employ “elder leadership” and forming a solid confession of faith, in this case throwing out the SBF&M (a truly gospel obscuring document) for the LBCF (much better minus the sacraments).

As we discussed this for over two years at various stages I said, “Ask yourself why you want elders in the first place, seriously” (I being myself under PCA)? Continuing, “Be careful you are not just implanting another ‘my law is better than your law’, that is at least in part what they are reacting to coming from a basic congregation only led church with doctrineless deacon puppets. Your entire goal is to bring the Gospel back to them, why they need it, their live’s lived in faith by it, passing it on down to the children and so forth, and in short to prepare them for their deaths…right! Be sure you are not just communicating ‘follow my better law’, in this case elders and confession of faith’. That was the previous pastor’s horrible error, be very aware that we fallen folks can make a ‘law’ out of anything (e.g. believers baptism which is meant to be Gospel). Have your goal right, FOR THE GOSPEL FOR THE BELIEVER, and I mean the pure Gospel, Christ crucified and FOR YOU, then explain to them why ‘elders’ and why a more formal confessional church. You are not trying to reassert Romanism and working your way to heaven or a better ‘law’, but the Gospel. Because their “pursuit” of “freedom” is sending them back to Rome anyway just under the name Southern Baptist…look at the principles of Law and Gospel, glory Vs. suffering cross. And to this you are establishing the guardians such as elders and a more solid confession of faith FOR THE GOSPEL. Because at the end of the day when the devil attacks in TRUE suffering, perhaps not until you lay dying on your death bed wracked with cancer or some other disease, or perhaps when that loved one dies or some great tragedy occurs or perhaps when you are so depressed you think about killing yourself or when you doubt you are ‘elect’ and God is against you in everyway, YOU WILL TREASURE THAT VERY PURE GOSPEL, that Christ crucified FOR ME that was protected and given to you by the leaders who see it for what it is and are capable of leading the sheep to death with true hope in hand even though everything else seems to be wrath and hell. Because Christ crucified and risen FOR YOU, in a Word of Gospel, Baptism or the Supper will bear you through the suffering and suffering of death. But you will curse the pastor who has given you false hope all along, who gives you good things and who does not prepare you for your death, and death is coming to us all. Because he’s been leading you to a false god, a god of earthly peace, victory, well being for all he has done is keep your eyes on another gospel and another Christ which cannot bear you through suffering and death.”

Even in the music discussions/battles that went on, that is another war in SB-ism, this was the principle they decided to use: The reason we are NOT doing junk music and hymn is to PROTECT THE GOSPEL, not a matter of style, but content. I told him, “Again, when you are dying, suffering, whistling the song, “Shine Jesus shine”, will hardly be anything to you as you lay suffering, in fact you’ll gnash your teeth at it. However, something like, “While I draw this fleeting breath, When my eyelids close in death, When I soar to worlds unknown, See Thee on Thy judgement throne, Rock of Ages, cleft for me, Let me hide myself in Thee”, that Gospel will be your treasure. They’ve got to realize, as with us all, we are going to die, no earthly victory will bear that up, you need a Gospel worthy to carry you home.

And so that was his approach. I belabor that because the issue with Saddleback and its likes, Warren, Olstean and their likes is not a matter of ‘my law is better than your law’, my way of church is better than yours. That’s not the issue, the issue is protecting the Gospel for the faith, hope and love of the suffering Christians. Christians do and WILL most ASSUREDLY suffer, if nothing more than your very own death bed. THAT’S what is wrong with Warren, that’s the deception he spews. Not I’m right and he’s wrong, but a false religion of ‘glory’ versus a religion of ‘cross’.

Second Issue but related. NOTE: P.E.A.C.E is the logical corporate extension of PDL and PDC’s theologies of glory. They are successive applications of a false religion that started and initiated with a very deceptive individual ToG, PDL, to a corporate application of ToG at the church level, PDC, and finally world wide to P.E.A.C.E outside the church level. It ought to be PAINFULLY obvious how the devil has played the pied piper here with a ToG. It is the definitive ToG against the theology of Cross. The devil has almost been painfully obvious here. Starting with the individual led away from the Cross, he next incorporates the church, then incorporates the world, PDL begets PDC begets P.E.A.C.E, one big theology of Glory in three parts. You want to answer PDL, PDC and P.E.A.C.E, give them a copy of Luther’s Heidelberg Disputation, it answers ALL of them resoundingly.

What’s wrong, for example with RW’s P.E.A.C.E Plan? Just read the book of Revelation, the judgment of the first and second horses, conquering and war, have already gone out to take peace away from the earth ever since the first advent of Jesus Christ. The only peace to be had is that which is now in the tension of faith which suffers passively for the return of the KING, the second advent. Faith WAITS, it does not “do”! This is how the devil draws Christians out of the faith. Christian’s ought not be looking to earthly peace, here and now, following a man, any man, that is driving toward worldly peace and in the process looses the Cross. A great thing to remember is that: You can have a CROSSLESS JESUS, which is no Jesus at all! Warren’s “peace” plan, for example, is against everything in Scripture, particularly Revelation, and is preparing a generation of deluded Christians to fall away from the faith somewhere in the unknown future. Beware of the yeast of the Pharisees that starts out imperceptible but finally blows up into a great big loaf of antichrist bread. One has to look at the long term, not just today. It gives a false gospel that will never be and by default covers the true Gospel in which hope (certitude and assurance) alone may be had. Then one is easy pickings for the devil. I’ll try to give an example and tell how it affects me and as I teach my family.

Luther saw it, that very strong theology of glory Vs. theology of Cross both to the individual, the church corporately and finally the world as a whole. That is a ToG is seeing what is happening by way of events, emotions, powers, sight - inwardly or outwardly - in and around the believer as an individual and/or the corporate church as a whole as not to be trusted or hoped in nor despaired of, for the Cross is our only way! But rather, always looking to the Cross even and especially in spite of what’s going on in and around the individual believer, corporate church or the world at large. Faith stays in a “suffering” tension “until” what it awaits is realized and ToC says, “trust the Gospel not what you see, can or cannot do, experience, understand, attain or feel. It’s so crucial what you are being taught! That paradox of when God seems far away and to have abandon “me” or the church broadly, is actually when He is most near. That is to say the Cross becomes the ONLY real certitude of faith and hope (certain expectation) in, with and through the suffering. Not suffering as a new work or merit, but the apparent abandonment drives one to call upon the name of the Lord at the Cross, and then the Cross is clung to and ALONE cherished even in the face of great harshness. BUT the Gospel has TO BE THERE FOR YOU or else you despair as Judas or deny God as Nietzsche.

One has to understand how the devil operates to draw one out from the faith. He doesn’t do it with naked girls or whiskey bottles. He will LOOK like God, a God of glory, so that you do not deny God so much by negative sins, but leave the Cross for the good looking sin of glorious things happening in and around your life, the church as a whole and/or the world at large. The devil will show that God has abandoned you because of the Law so that, sans Gospel, you either despair and kill yourself, OR seek after another god that you think is God, the God of Scripture, by way of the Law. But that god is really the devil drawing you out, and you may even call him “Jesus”. This is how such ministries deceive, perhaps even unto themselves like Warren or Olstean.

And consider this: In revelatory Biblical literature, it is not to “predict” specific times, places and events so as to in essence make sure your right so you can be spared it, but rather the certitude of God’s Word that it WILL happen period and those had by the Cross will suffer them, but not the wrath of God. In this Satan’s great device is to cause you, by individual ToGs or corporate ToGs, to turn from the faith to avoid the suffering here and now with his people, be at peace in the world (keep in mind suffering is laid upon you not self appointed which is just another ToG and devil’s martyrism). But the devil’s kingdom will not be spared the wrath TO COME. Contrary to this is God’s people, they will not be spared earthly suffering (the opposite of the devil’s kingdom), in the devil’s kingdom, but will NEVER partake of the wrath TO COME, for Jesus, our King, has carried that for us. Thus, God will deliver His people in spite of what they will experience, this was how Paul and Peter encouraged the Christians of that time when all hell was actually breaking loose.

This forms a powerful Gospel understanding for the faith and hope of the individual as well as the corporate church and TRUE witness to the world at large. If you don’t have the theology of Cross, then the reality of “it shall certainly come to pass” serves to only be terror as judgment is a certitude. And the “certitude” of knowing in principle the things coming to pass, even suffering, helps strengthen the ToC in the sense that “these things are expected, but don’t loose heart, as the hidden God is really there for you as Cross and not glory (for now)”. One man suffers and curses God, the other suffers and lays down his working knowing the Lord will deliver him. Perhaps one is just a re-statement of the other, ToC being more broad in principle and can be a view more from the “person” near to themselves, as to where the other, the certitude of things happening, tends to be a “looking down” upon time and space unfolding in which one’s self is part of. In other words the ToC tells me as I see it happening now and to me, the very personal appearance that God has abandon me/you in particular experience, I am to look to the Cross ALONE in spite of what I see, experience or do. And that prophetic certitude of “it shall come to pass, so I’m telling you so you won’t loose heart” is more of a fore-looking and more corporate in nature - though the individual will be involved in that corporate future.

And this is how it seems to play out in the life of the believer contra Rick Warren’s religion:

I told my wife that we have to learn and trust this. However, not for intellectual stimulation or to be “more right” (my law is better than your law) about a subject, BUT for the faith and hope of God’s people, and to be able to pass it down to our children who can then do the same to successive generations of Christians. And this is the reason I told her, it goes all the way back to suffering and death on the larger scale which includes individuals:

Some day in the future this will come to pass, the final immediate events just outside of the second coming, and/or perhaps there will still yet be an in between persecution before the greatest last day of all persecutions. Thus, there will be a generation of Christians or more, maybe our children, maybe a millennia from now, or in between (not the final one), that will be under the most intense persecution imaginable. In the US today any persecution we experience is mainly an attack on thoughts and the Word itself (like Warren), not so much the sword, but that is not so small as some may think (the sword is not always the worst kind of attack), the Devil ALWAYS attacks the Gospel that gives faith. However, that generation will come that will have both a heavy sword and deception. And if ALL they have been taught or know in summary is some form of normal dispensational thing or “happy times are here if we try hard enough”, avoiding the suffering laid upon us, in conjunction with a ToG that always yields a victory for the Christian themselves and corporately as a church - it will endanger their faith and/or potentially kill their faith unto apostasy. Why? Because ToG in always gives a positive outlook in the here and now that can be measured by the senses and emotions and mind; it gives a victory today for the church and the individual believer, but it is peace on earth and war with God. And in that teaching it is taught in many and various ways to the individual, corporate church and world at large that suffering will not come but victory. Thus, if you are taught that “this” is the true revelation of God’s Word (e.g. via PDL, PDC and/or P.E.A.C.E, because THAT is what RW claims by rending Scripture to his use) along with the works that drive ToG, and then you begin to suffer as you shall, when there is no peace individually or corporately or nationally, you can only conclude by all of these living by sight measurements that God has truly abandoned you as you’ve not “done” something right. THEN, recall how the devil DRAWS you out, the devil will have you into despair and/or anger against God then next comes apostasy (e.g. fundamentally F. Nietzsche denied the Cross for a ToG, the uber man), because the Cross has been hidden from you FOR your faith. Similarly if you are taught “victory” in any form individually or corporately (e.g. like PDL/PDC…P.E.A.C.E) before Christ returns and our own real and true glorification – if you begin to look to what is going on near and far from self, seeing rather than trusting nakedly in the tension of suffering faith that awaits eschatologically, measuring things, events such as self improvement and victory for one’s self, the church as a whole and world at large - if you do this so that when you yourself or the church broadly begins to suffer, then you will begin working your way to heaven, take the beast’s number, rather than endure the ill and trust the Cross/Gospel alone even in the face of the opposite what ever that opposite is. This opens the door for seeking the devil and his way as if he were the saviour of your soul, but you will think it is and see it as God, even perhaps you will see it as Christian and worse you may see it as the gospel, the spirit and the christ.

It’s the difference in a ToG and a ToC. The later being the reality of suffering now and to come, the paradox of opposites in which it ‘looks like’ God has abandoned us, but in reality He reveals Himself to the eyes of faith alone at the Cross (but there has to be that certitude of Christ FOR YOU specifically), reason will never see it only faith has it. The former, ToG, on the other hand in all its forms is how a person could be driven from the faith, seeing the appearance of God abandoning them and not knowing the opposite to be true, no faith or loosing faith, thus not having the Cross but rejecting it and then either denying God altogether in anger OR seeking what they think is God by works which is really now an idol and the devil, and self. As I think Luther once said you’ll see the devil as the saviour and follow him, you don’t follow him AS the devil but his appearance as God himself.

I hope I’ve made some sense so as to help and not drive folks away from the faith.

Blessings,

Larry KY

Ross McPhee

Rupert has kicked on a bit since he inherited his father Sir Keith's company, News Limited, which operated nationally in Australia. Rupert's grandfather was a Presybterian pastor. Only God knows what's in Rupert's heart.

I've only skim read the previous comments to this post, so I'm not having a go at any of you, but feel prompted to say this. Many years ago a member of a heavy metal band became a Christian. This was reported in the Christian press, with the comment that rather than playing the Pharisee, some Christians must have been praying for him instead.

J. K. Jones

If Murdock is not a member of Warren's church, what form would the discipline take?

Is a pastor required to publicly discipline someone who is not under his authority?

Warren is on record in multiple places opposing pornography

Steve

If Pastor Warren is concern about pornography should he be using a publisher that is owned by company sell pornography?

If Pastor Warren claims that Mr. Murdoch is one of his sheep, then Pastor Warren is responsibile for Mr. Murdoch. Church membership is not an issue but an excuse of inaction.

lc

RW,C.S.Lewis,Zondervan/Harper Collins all follow the same theology, which is the the vain imaginings of man. They aren't the only examples of false teachings though they are very popular with the masses for easy christianity.Jesus told us His yoke is easy...His yoke, not the worldly visions of a man who hides behind Jesus' name to promote his own idea of good. Nor of an author who thinks it's okay to use an alternate magical world to entertain children into understanding what sacrifice and repentance means. There are many professed christians who think Lewis' fantasy books are good. Yet they blind themselves to what the basis for these books are... MAGIC... They will disdain "Potter" ,yet herald Lewis because he's a professed christian. Then there are the publishers who have only one god,greenback....Well intentioned does not automatically mean christian,even if it hides behind it. And since I cannot know the hearts of others, I can only discern by scriptural worthiness and pray for God to open the eyes to those who fall from having good intentions. I pray for that for myself BECAUSE it is so easy to be lured by what "sounds" good and wholesome. Satan isn't going to tempt you by being obvious that it's him. We are easily tempted of ourselves to want to think we are good. What we tend to be swayed from is we can't without Jesus alone. No other sheep clothed lie/truth or fiction is a substitute OR addition, they lead souls away from the only truth.

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