I recently resigned my position at Capo Valley Church. I'm now a member at Faith Lutheran in Capistrano Beach, California.
Recently, Faith called a new Associate Pastor. He was installed this past Sunday in one of the most profound and impactful services I've ever had the privilege of attending. The sermon preached for Pastor Rhode's installation was beyond amazing. I do not have words that are adequate to describe it. Therefore, I'm reproducing the entire text here in this post.
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A Sermon Preached by the Rev. Ron Hodel at the Installation of Pastor Jeremy Rhode on Sunday June 23, 2007.
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Pastor Rhode, and all my brothers and sisters in Christ here at Faith Lutheran Church.
This is an exciting day your life… and in the life of this parish. Behind you are many very excited people. Why they’re excited is beyond me… but they are… and, to tell you the truth, and so am I.
I thought that at your installation, I ought to preach a practical sermon for once - giving you ten bullet-points – advise on how to be a good Pastor, have a successful ministry, and make it so that people love you.
But then I decided that it’s really only a one bullet-point sermon.
Inspired by the Holy Spirit, St. Paul wrote about God’s method of saving sinful people, you, and me, and all the rest of the sons and daughters of Adam sitting around you. Preach this, and you’ll be
• a good Pastor (though may in the world will beg to differ),• you'll have a successful ministry (in the eyes of relatively very few and certainly not in the eyes of the growing, successful mega-churches),
• and you’ll make it so that people (but only people who know they’re broken) will love you.
You know the text well. 1Cor. 1:18-25
For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written, “I WILL DESTROY THE WISDOM OF THE WISE, AND THE CLEVERNESS OF THE CLEVER I WILL SET ASIDE.” 20 Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. 22 For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom; 23 but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness, 24 but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom. Paul’s emphasis is on what seemingly dumb methods God chose to save us.
• Dumb and foolish as compared to the impressive things set forth by the self proclaimed “super-apostles” at Corinth.• The very opposite of wisdom in the eyes of the world then and now.
But the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
Times really haven’t changed and all that Paul says here is also considered foolish to the sophisticated American … and, believe it or not, to many Christian Pastors as well. And to make matters worse, Pastor Rhode, in a few minutes you’re going to promise before all these people and before God Himself, just as you promised a couple of weeks ago at your Ordination, that you will personally use these dumb methods God uses to save us sinners.
You have personally “bet the farm” on some guy talking about God saving the world by an instrument of Roman execution and giving out the benefits of that cross by means of
• a sinful Pastor’s mouth,• plain old tap water,
• bread and fairly cheap wine.
Kind of foolish, if you think about it, isn’t it. And maybe only slightly worse, you’re going to promise that you will – come hell or high water – have a ministry filled with these dumb methods, and really, only these dumb methods.
And so, before you make this promise again, remember this, you’re setting yourself up for a lifetime of derision and contempt… foolishness even to other Christian pastors who have discovered something better than word and water and bread and wine and the forgiveness of sins. In fact, talk about this with them and they’ll think you’ve time warped in from the 16th century. They’ll give lip service to your sincerity (after all, being postmodern, they think, well, if it works for you, great) but they’ll make jokes about you behind your back because you imagine
• that the preaching of the Gospel gives people eternal life…• that some water poured on the head of an adult or baby works salvation
• and that a poor excuse for a piece of bread and obscenely sweet wine actually deliver the gifts of Christ.
You’re going to promise to faithfully appear to be a fool – at least to the so-called “wise” of the world for the rest of your days. And maybe the fool you are. With your God-given intelligence and skill set, you could say, No thanks, go downtown and get a real job and pull in six figures in a matter of weeks. But like a fool, at your Ordination and here at your Installation you,
• encouraged by the people of God around you, • by your promise• you have tied yourself to a mast from which you promise never to move…
• the mast of true doctrine and straight teaching…
and then… let me give you a heads up, for the rest of your borne days are going to have to deal with those same people who encouraged you to tie yourself to this mast…
• your going to be encouraged to move from the mast…• to bend and to stretch, to other less foolish, even wiser ways than those to which you have bound yourself.
But if I couldn’t talk you out of it at vicarage, I’m sure not going to be able to talk you out of it now.
And so, for your encouragement, I offer you the Holy Spirit inspired words of Paul.
Greeks seek wisdom… and the wise among the Greeks saw absolutely no sense in this word of the cross. They deemed it beneath them, foolishness (mo-ria the Greek says, moronic.) Paul was writing to the Corinthians and ironically, not a single great philosopher came from Corinth, but it was full of amateurs… wise Greeks wanting a rational explanation of the universe and everything in it. Now, there’s nothing wrong with that but these “wise ones” has a pretty high view of themselves and they saw the message of the cross as beneath them. To the Greeks, this whole business about a Messiah who dies saving His people was silliness. Thinking this way is what happens when your brain gets overheated by the hot middle-eastern sun. You hallucinate about religious things.
Although the Greeks, to whom Paul wrote, lived 2000 years ago, their spirit still lives on in the lives of all sorts of people today.
You’ve heard the Greek reaction of people today:
• Have you ever heard anything so preposterous and gross… It’s embarrassing… Washed in the blood of Jesus… it give me the creeps!• Or rejecting the good news of the Gospel, people embrace postmodernism. If it works for you, great. But it doesn’t work for me and so you go find truth for yourself and I’ll go find my own truth.
• Then there will be the comments you’ll overhear people say about other people who finally come to Jesus. They’ll make comments about others, but the comments will be directed at you. They’ll say, Some church has roped poor Jim in; got him giving his money to the; doing free labor for them. Bunch of snake handlers, all of ‘em. Con men. Just look at the palaces they call churches that they build for themselves.
Rejecting the news of the Gospel, these so-called “wise ones” are on their way to God’s condemnation - For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing.
The Greeks search for wisdom and the Jews ask for signs.
The Jews were skeptics, too… skeptical about Jesus as the Messiah and Savior for reasons other than the Greeks. The Jews possessed an inspired Old Testament and in that Testament, God had promised great signs that would be connected to the Messiah’s coming.
Well, Jesus not only had the right Messianic credentials, He also did signs. In fact, enough signs that He was able to say to His detractors, If you do not believe my words, believe Me because of the works that I do. They bear witness of Me. But no, they wanted signs of their own choosing. They weren’t impressed by the lame walking, the blind seeing and the dead being raised four days after they’d died. No, they wanted a military miracle. Get rid of the Romans occupying our land and we’ll accept you as Messiah. Or perhaps if you’d rearrange the stars in the heavens, make the moon and the stars play hide-and-seek, or walk across Herod’s swimming pool. And the only sign Jesus would give them at that point was the sign of the cross. The leaders demanded a sign to prove His authority, and Jesus gave them one. He told them He would die and rise again. That would be the sign.
The sign of His dead body hanging on a tree.
Paul was right in what he preached. The fact that the Messiah ended up crucified on a cross became a very large stumbling block… a scandalon to his fellow Jews.
In Scripture, a scandalon is deadly.
• A scandalon is something you trip over and head first onto the rocks below.• A scandalon is that sharpened stick in an animal trap that, when the trap is sprung, stabs the trapped animal and kills it.
And that’s precisely what the cross was to the Jew of Jesus’ day. That the Great King of the Universe and of Israel in particular,
• came down to earth in human flesh,• to be spit on, made fun of,
• twiddled for the amusement of a few sadistic Roman soldiers garrisoned in the boonies of the Empire,
• and finally to be nailed to a cross for everyone to laugh at… impossible!
No Messiah, especially a heavenly Messiah who is God in the flesh in Person, would ever stand for that! Besides, Paul’s opponents would say, Doesn’t the Old Testament say that anyone who ends up hanged on a tree is under the curse of God?
And that answer is, Yes, it does. And the Jew would say, Aha! Then whoever the Messiah is, He will not end up nailed to a cross! And Paul would respond… Ah, contraire. Jesus was a cursed man, only it was our curse He bore, not His own. And whoever doesn’t accept the fact that the cross bore their Messiah, that cross will be like the death-stick in an animal trap… it will kill them.
Paul preached to people 2000 years ago, but the spirit of these people lives on in the world today.
• All I want is for God to show Himself to me… some way… any way, but some way for sure!• All I want is for God to do this miracle or that and I’ll believe.
Pastor Rhode, the only sign God gives, is, you preaching His crucified and risen Son from this pulpit. Pretty pathetic in the eyes of the world.
• Want to impress the world? Don’t preach this! Don’t placard Christ crucified in your liturgy, your hymns and your sermons.• Want to amaze the planet? Don’t be foolish. Don’t say something unwise. Tell them something they want to hear … don’t announce Christ having been crucified and risen from the dead for the forgiveness of sins, for free every Sunday! People already know that. Get on to other more important things. Good Christians are going to get bored with Gospel preaching.
• Don’t announce what God did for sinners about 2000 years ago, on a Friday, at about 3 o’clock in the afternoon on hill just outside of Jerusalem.
• Don’t tell them about the injustice that happened there, where Christ Jesus died the death you and I deserve. You’ve got to have something more practical to say than that. They don’t talk about that at Rock Harbor, Saddleback or the Crystal Cathedral… and those are successful places. Model your preaching after their motivational talks. Then you’ll be successful.
Pastor Rhode, there is nothing more practical than Gospel preaching. Nothing more practical because by the promise of God, the preaching of the word of the cross produces faith in doomed children of Adam. It produces faith, not just crowds.
The Bible says, Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. The only problem with that is that I can’t do this and you can’t either. As Adam’s children, we’re born at enmity with God… we wouldn’t believe God if our lives counted on it. But God’s foolish methods (the preaching of His Gospel, the washing of Holy Baptism and receiving Christ Jesus by the mouth in the Lord’s Supper) make us unwilling ones willing. Luther said, God looks into our hearts and finds no faith in Christ whatsoever. He creates in us faith in Christ as he created the heavens and the earth: that is, out of nothing!
• God placed the world into His grand universe, surrounded it with His creative glory on every side… and what was the result in the hearts of humankind? Nothing! Zero! God doesn’t exist!• God tenderly cares for this world with His providential care – my guess averting far more disasters than He allows… and what does humankind think of Him? They’re indifferent at best.
But God does more by the foolishness of preaching Christ than the world has ever accomplished with all its wisdom. In God’s gracious, good pleasure He took the last thing anyone would ever expect Him to take, (an old rugged cross and RH typeable blood) and used it to forgive us of all of our sin! And in doing this, God made a joke out of the arrogant wisdom of the wise of this world.
Think of it! A simple missionary or a Pastor tells the story of the incarnation and the voluntary suffering and death of Jesus for the forgiveness of sin – and that changes the heart of hearers in a way that none of the wisdom of the world ever could do.
• It saves them,• it reconciles them to God,
• it causes them to be adopted as children of the heavenly Father…
• in a word, it justifies them before God for Jesus’ sake.
• It succeeds in making rebels believe what this story says.
Foolishness, don’t you think? As Luther said in one of his Christmas sermons, Why if I have been God, I wouldn’t have done it that way! I would have just taken the devil and twisted his nose and said, Let my people go! And that makes sense.
Preach sermons that point people to practical things.
• Things they have control over.• Things where they can see their own progress.
• Sermons that deal with problems only rich Americans seem to have.
• Bits of fabulous advise for maintaining health, finding a purpose and increasing wealth.
• Bits of wisdom for those -- who plan never to die.
But those aren’t sermons. I don’t know what they are, but they’re not sermons.
• A sermon is about the depth of your sin and mine.• A sermon is about Christ’s atoning blood freely given to redeem you and me from that sin.
• A sermon is about Jesus as the only merit we have and that that merit of Jesus is freely and fully reckoned to our account.
Pastor Rhode, you’re here because you preach sermons… and we pray you do that as long as God grants you health and strength to do it.
• You are going to placard before this congregation and those who visit usa Christ, as God’s only way of saving people: God the Father’s Son nailed to a cross as our Great Substitute.• You are going to pour simple tap water on the heads of adults and babies alike and God’s word is going to work in that water and wash away their sins.
• You are going to put bread into people’s mouths and wine on their lips and you’re going to tell them, Take eat. This is the true body of Christ given into death for your sin. Take, drink. This is the true blood of Christ shed for you.
And through all of this, God’s Word will create faith in your hearer’s hearts – faith that trusts and clings to the belief that this nailed man’s body and blood will take them to heaven. And it will take them to heaven. It will even take you.
I say that about you not because I know a secret about you. No. There are going to come times in your life when you’re going to be tempted to not believe this. There are going to come dark nights in the pastor’s soul where all the promises of Scripture will seems to be like chaff, like dust, like foolish babble. That’s the way it’s going to look sometimes. Believe me, I know. Pastor Rhode, there is nothing more debilitating than the continuous handling of sacred things. I know that, too. There’s just something about the holy that sucks the life out of you.
When those days come - you need to hear for yourself the foolish words that create faith in dead hearts…
• a Pastor, perhaps, who will tell you this• members of your congregation who minister to your dry soul in those dark hours.
• You need to hear these words of Scripture…
• and you (congregation) need to remind Pastor Rhode and myself of these things as well.
“The Son of Man came not to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.” (Matthew 20:28)
“Come to Me, all you who are heavy laden. Take My yoke upon you, for My yoke is easy and My burden is light.” (Matthew 11:28)
“And He, when He comes, will neither break the bruised reed, nor quench the smoldering wick.” (Matthew 12:20)
“Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us . . .” (Galatians 3:13)
“For by grace you are saved, through faith, and that [faith in Jesus is] not of yourselves, but it is a gift of God, lest any man should boast.” (Ephesians 2:8)
“And to the man who does not work but trusts the One who justifies the wicked, his faith is counted as if it were righteousness.” (Romans 4:5)
“For we maintain that a man is justified by faith, apart from works of the law.” (Romans 3:28)
“But now a righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, . . . the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. (Romans 3:21)
“Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.” (Romans 5:1)
“There is now, therefore, no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.” (Romans 8:1)
So, Pastor Rhode,
“Be of good cheer, my son. Your sins are forgiven.” (Matthew 9:2)
“It is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.” (Luke 12:32)
INI
Thanks for posting this sermon. I pray that we might have more like this every time a Christian miister opens his mouth.
Posted by: Bryce | June 29, 2007 at 01:30 AM
Chris, sadly I have heard several ordination sermons and none of them really never commend the minister-to-be to true ministry of Gospel. This sermon is so far out of the catagories of contempory Evangelicalism that even our seminaries don't even get it (maybe it's foolish to them as well?) Thank God He keeps His promises and continues to raise up His men to give the gospel of Christ to a dying world.
Posted by: Darrindale | June 29, 2007 at 10:24 AM
Thank you for posting this sermon. It helped me to stay on track.
Posted by: Johannes | June 29, 2007 at 02:43 PM
Chris,
Thank you for your comments on baptism at Inept as Icing. I dropped you a note back on my site.
Posted by: Billy Chia | June 29, 2007 at 04:40 PM
WOW...what a great sermon.
It's one of those that makes you say..."man..I wish I would have said that".
Peace!
Posted by: jimmy@relevantchristian | June 29, 2007 at 11:06 PM
Great sermon.
Except:
• You are going to pour simple tap water on the heads of adults and babies alike and God’s word is going to work in that water and wash away their sins.
• You are going to put bread into people’s mouths and wine on their lips and you’re going to tell them, Take eat. This is the true body of Christ given into death for your sin. Take, drink. This is the true blood of Christ shed for you.
???
Posted by: henry frueh | July 08, 2007 at 04:30 PM
Henry,
When a pastor baptizes an person, Scripture teaches that by the water and the Word, sins are washed away. This is what God does in Holy Baptism. (See http://www.extremetheology.com/2006/09/baptism_saves.html) .
As for Holy Communion, we find the forgiveness of sin when we eat the body and drink the blood of Christ that is in the bread and wine. (See http://www.extremetheology.com/2006/11/just_bread_and_.html).
I find that many American Christians view of both Holy Baptism and Holy Scripture placed the believer over Christ since both are treated as something we do and not something that Christ does for us.
One of the key roles of a pastor is serving the means of grace, Word and Sacraments, to the people of God.
Steve
Posted by: Steve | July 10, 2007 at 09:13 AM
Both of those "sacraments" as you say are carry overs from the RCC. They are shadows of the law.
Posted by: Henry (Rick) Frueh | July 11, 2007 at 01:34 PM
Henry,
That was a joke right?
Are you really going to argue that Baptism and the Lord's supper have their origin in the RCC instead of the New Testament?
Be careful how you answer this. My gun is already loaded with some clear New Testament passages that will 'kill' your theory.
Do you want to rethink this?
Posted by: Chris Rosebrough | July 11, 2007 at 04:52 PM
Of course not, I meant that infant baptism is a shadow of circumcision invented by the RCC, and transubstantiation, later modified by Luther, is an invention of the RCC.
So they did not institute those two observances, God did, the RCC changed them into sacramental avenues of grace. The only avenue of grace is Jesus Himself, not the emblems that are representative.
Posted by: Henry (Rick) Frueh | July 11, 2007 at 08:03 PM
Henry,
Please supply evidence to support your position. You will find that both Chris and myself have strong biblical as well as Church history support for our position.
Posted by: Steve Newell | July 11, 2007 at 10:45 PM
I must say that I agree with Henry. Nothing that you DO can wash away sins. Anyone that can face a Holy God on the day of judgment and say that they have a right to pass through the gate because they...(were baptized, or took communion, or never ate pork,or always kept the sabbath, or walked on water or prayed a prayer, or any other thing) this man has not placed his faith in Christ, but in his own act of obedience to Christ. It is not the act of obedience that has the power to save! It is Christ that has the power to save. Listen to Spurgeon on the subject. "Remember therefore, it is not your hold on Christ that saves you. It is Christ! It is not you joy in Christ that saves you. It is Christ! It is not even your faith in Christ that saves you (though that is the vehicle) it is Christ's blood and merit. Therefore, do not look to your own hand with which you grasp Christ, but look to Christ! Look not to your hope, but to the source of hope, look not to your own faith, but the author and finisher of your faith." I would even add, look not to your baptism, but to Christ, look not to your obeying the sacraments, but to Christ. This idea that baptism has the power to wash away sins is no different than the Catholic belief that obeying the Catholic sacraments forgives sins. All you have done is shortened the list of sacraments. This is not conducive to a person placing ALL faith in Christ, and NOTHING in what he has done. In fact, it encourages a man to place faith in something other than Christ. What then is the difference between this belief and the RCC belief that obeying the RCC sacraments leads to the forgiveness of sin?
Posted by: dogma | July 12, 2007 at 12:59 AM
I know that you're going to argue that God is the one that is active in baptism, and the one getting baptized is passive. This sounds nice, but there isn't any backing for such a position. If it were true, then we can assume that all Catholics are saved. As well as Mormons, JW's etc. etc.
The fact remains, those who trust that baptism has taken their sins away, when standing before God will say, "I deserve part in your kingdom because I got baptized" anyone that approaches God and says, "I deserve part in the kingdom because I...." is not of the kingdom. Only those who approach God and say "I deserve part in the kingdom because YOU..." has a right to the kingdom. Don't even try to claim for one second that those who trust in baptism to forgive their sins will approach the throne and say, "I deserve part in the kingdom because You baptized me." Baptism is always preceded by the preposition "I" "I got baptized" never "God baptized me" Active vs. passive. Baptism is an active verb, and I have never heard it in my life in the passive voice. Even in the sermon, the minister does not say, "God will baptize them" he says, "you (another minister) will baptize them" notice that he does not say, "then Christ will work salvation" he says, "that some water poured on the head of an adult or baby works salvation" Does Christ work salvation or does water work salvation? If Christ, then why didn't he say that? Why did he say, "water" works salvation?
Water is H2O, it is nothing, it has no power to work anything. Christ has all power. Christ works salvation!
Posted by: dogma | July 12, 2007 at 01:30 AM
Dogma,
Please explain all the New Testament scripture references to baptism as doing something. Also provide scriptural proof for your position. Again, Chris and I have scriptural basis for this historic position of the Church.
Posted by: Steve Newell | July 12, 2007 at 07:00 AM
Henry,
Lets take a few verses on Baptism for starts.
Acts 22:14 “Then he said: ‘The God of our fathers has chosen you to know his will and to see the Righteous One and to hear words from his mouth. 15 You will be his witness to all men of what you have seen and heard. 16 And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.’
Acts 2:38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Rom 6:3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
Col 2:11 In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.
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These verses clearly tell us that in baptism...
1. Our sins are forgiven & washed away
2. We are buried with Christ
3. We are raised with Christ
4. Our hearts are circumcised by Christ
Would you care to comment on what these verses say?
Posted by: Chris Rosebrough | July 12, 2007 at 08:56 AM
The references in Acts are narrative, not teaching, and were understood in an embryonic way which the Holy Spirit amplified later through Paul. The Pauline Scriptures you quoted present a metaphorical reality using baptism.
They also compare baptism with burial which of course speak to immersion, and these obviously are speaking to adult believers.
Paul again uses circucision as a metaphor for putting off the old man. BTW - the "we have Scripture" line can be used by everyone from many perspectives and it smacks of inerrant interpretation.
The entire reason for baptism is a public identification of the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. The Roman Catholic Church changed it to mean the washing away of sins which is works. Luther could not shed some things he learned from them.
And no one, not even the parents, can stand in for some else's sins. There is only one mediator between God and man and it isn't the parents. That is OT covenant theolgy of the ceremonial/sacramental observances of the law. The New Testament is of the Spirit, not written on tables of stone but fleshy tables of the heart.
PS - I was raised Lutheran so I am acquainted with there beliefs.
Posted by: henry frueh | July 12, 2007 at 10:45 AM
Even Peter who gave a somewhat less than accurate invitation in Acts 2, later in his first letter said that baptism was a figure, not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but a figure of the resurrection of Jesus Christ. (I Pet.3:21) He also meantions the answer of a good conscience which assumes a non-infancy state.
Posted by: Henry (Rick) Frueh | July 12, 2007 at 10:51 AM
Henry,
So why baptize if it means absolutely nothing?
Posted by: Steve | July 12, 2007 at 10:55 AM
Henry,
I was raised in the SBC church so I understand the view that Baptism have towards both baptism and the Lord's Supper.
Steve
Posted by: Steve Newell | July 12, 2007 at 11:01 AM
The most obvious reason for baptizing and being baptized is the diect command of Christ.
The second reason is the public evidence of your faith in the Lord Jesus. It means very little in this culture, but an Islamic convert may lose even his life over it.
Baptism is just like the Lord's Supper, sacred and meaningful, but of no addition to the complete work of Christ. Bot are to be observed by sinners who have been changed by "believing on the Lord Jesus Christ".
You are correct if you believe that the evangelical world has relegated these observances to almost a meaningless obligation. The NT churches would observe communion every Sunday, and believer's baptism was a solemn and sacrifial event. Not so today.
Posted by: Henry (Rick) Frueh | July 12, 2007 at 11:06 AM
I'd like to address the issue this way. Let's take the phrase "that some water poured on the head of a baby works salvation"
Please give me scriptural support for this.
Posted by: dogma | July 12, 2007 at 11:12 AM
Why is baby any different any other individual. The baby is sinful and in need of salvation just as anyone one else.
In the Great Commission, Jesus commanded that we are by make disciples of all nations by baptizing them in the name of the triune God. Jesus is not excluded babies from this.
In Acts 2, Peter clearly states that the forgiveness of sins for the hearers and their children.
Paul baptizes the entire household of the jailer in Philipi. This would include infants if they are members of his household.
Nowhere are babies excluded from baptism either in Scripture.
Posted by: Steve Newell | July 12, 2007 at 11:17 AM
Dogma - they do not believe that as you stated it. They believe that the faith of the parents starts a process that must be substantiated by the child when he grows. And then when the young people reach a certain age, after they have taken two or three years of Lutheran catachism, all of them, on one day, confirm that baptism by their own faith and then they take their first communion.
It is structured and liturgical and is a shadow of the OT covenant theology. I went through the whole process and was pronounced a member of the church and I was as lost as Hitler. The same can be said for evangelical church membership, so church membership is unbiblical and gives some lost people false assurance of their salvation.
How many evangelists have said in their sermon "You may even be a member of the church and not be saved!"? What is he saying? He is saying that the church has falsely said you were saved. Very serious.
Posted by: Henry (Rick) Frueh | July 12, 2007 at 11:21 AM
Henry,
Great Dodge. We don't have to believe what the book of Acts teaches on baptism because it was said in a narrative.
The Four Gospels are Narrative does that mean we can just cast aside any doctrines found in the Gospels that you don't agree with because they were told in a narrative.
Here is another doctrine found in the book of Acts. This is a doctrine pertaining to salvation.
When asked by the Philippian jailer what he must do to be saved the Apostle Paul and Silas told him:
Acts 16:31 And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”
Using your interpretational theory we should NOT believe that in order to be saved we must 'believe in the Lord Jesus' because that was told in a narrative during an embryonic stage of the church.
Right?
Henry you have no latitude to pick and choose those things from scripture that you want to believe. Deal with the passages.
The apostles taught that Baptism washes away sins (the text says it), they believed that in our baptisms we are buried and raised with Christ (the text says it), and our hearts are circumcised by the hand of Christ (the text says it).
All you've offered us is an inconsistent hermaneutic that seeks an excuse for denying what these clear passages teach.
Posted by: Chris Rosebrough | July 12, 2007 at 11:28 AM
Henry,
Does an infant need salvation? If so, then how does God have that infant?
You're understanding of Lutheran theology appears to be limited.
Posted by: Steve Newell | July 12, 2007 at 11:30 AM
It is not a dodge, it is rightly dividing. The quotes of the book of Acts are only authoritative if they are substantiated by the epistles, especially Paul.
If you will look at Acts chapter 7 verse 4, you will see that Stephen states that Abraham left Haran after Terah, Abraham's father, died. But if you go to Genesis 11:26, you'll find that Terah was 70 yrs. old when he fathered Abram. Look at Genesis 11:32 and you'll see that Terah died in Haran at age 205.
Genesis 12:4 tell us that Abram left Haran at age 75, which means Terah would still be 145 yrs old and still alive. So the Book of Acts correctly records Stephan's words but Stephen incorrectly gives the chronology.
That is why everything must begin with Paul and anything in the narratives must be supportive. Rightly dividing the Word.
Posted by: Henry (Rick) Frueh | July 12, 2007 at 11:56 AM
The salvation of an infant is a subject that is not dealt with in the New Testament so all opinions are just that. Many quote David's observation about his dead son, but there again that is David's opinion.
Many evangleicals state that all aborted babies and infants that die go to heaven. That is a presumption based upon nothing in the Word and mostly our human emotions and wishful thinking. It may or may not be true, but there is no authoritative teaching on that in the New Testament.
Posted by: Henry (Rick) Frueh | July 12, 2007 at 12:03 PM
No.
Everything begins with Christ.
Based on your view of Scripture, we can treat parts of Holy Scripture as non-doctrinal and other as doctrinal. This is a very dangerous position that you are taking. So should we exclude Acts from Holy Scripture? How do treat the Gospels? Either All Scripture is God breathed and good for teaching or it's not. There is no middle ground.
Posted by: Steve Newell | July 12, 2007 at 12:08 PM
Henry,
Do didn't answer my question on infants. Do infants need salvation? I have yet to see a biblical support for your position.
Posted by: Steve Newell | July 12, 2007 at 12:09 PM
All Scripture is inspired but not all are teaching Scriptures in the doctrinal sense. Revelation? Leviticus? Song of Solomon.
Come on, Steve, you know there are a variety of Scriptures that give examples, prophecy, the OT law, Christophonies, life of Christ, narratives, demonic quotes, and doctrinal teachings that apply to the church, the body of Christ. If they are all equal and for the church today, then what part of Leviticus do we adhere to?
Do we place cloths on our body to heal the sick? Walk under someone's shadow for healing? Call blindness on someone who interferes with our witnessing?
No middle ground on inspiration, but rightly dividing the Word.
Posted by: Henry (Rick) Frueh | July 12, 2007 at 12:16 PM
So you are stating that Paul was wrong in what he wrote to Timothy. Do I understand you correctly?
Do you understand the concept of Law and Gospel and how the Reformation uses this to understand all of scripture?
Posted by: Steve Newell | July 12, 2007 at 12:21 PM
Paul is the revelator to the church, having received his teaching directly from Christ. Even Peter submits to mhis teaching. There is no law to the church, it has been fulfilled and returning to any of it is returning bto the beggarly elements. I would entertain a continuing communication through my e-mail, spcrick@msn.com
Posted by: Henry (Rick) Frueh | July 12, 2007 at 12:25 PM
Can a man see heaven without baptism?
Posted by: dogma | July 12, 2007 at 01:02 PM
If a man can see heaven without baptism, then it is not baptism that works salvation. It is Christ and Christ alone!
Posted by: dogma | July 12, 2007 at 01:03 PM
Dogma,
Can a person be saved without baptism? Yes. Can baptism have the individual? Yes. Both are true. Scripture doesn't say that it's one or the other. That is a false distinction.
If one views baptism as only a work of man, then what you say is correct. However, if one views baptism as something God does through water and the Word of God, then both are true.
Posted by: Steve Newell | July 12, 2007 at 01:16 PM
And when asked about death bed conversions or believers of a different non-baptism persuasion, the answers again reveal a man made solution.
If baptism is necessary for conversion then there is no excuse for a death bed believer. Infant baptism is an attempt to bring the OT into the church. The RCC uses incense, priestly robes, candles, an altar, infant baptism, and many other artifacts that were done away with in the New Covenant of the Spirit. Luther could not have been expected to completely break from the RCC, none of us could.
He was a man used greatly of God to return to the Scriptures alone and salvation by faith alone.
Posted by: Henry (Rick) Frueh | July 12, 2007 at 01:17 PM
Water does not wash away any sins, only the blood of the Lamb of God can wash away sins. Baptism is a reflection of that glorious redemption.
Posted by: henry frueh | July 12, 2007 at 01:25 PM
Rick,
Stop rationalizing.
Your rationalizations hold no water (pardon the pun).
In Acts 22 Paul clearly says that the purpose of his baptism was to wash his sins away. He said this near the earthly end of his ministry. This is supported by the teaching of the Apostle Peter at Pentecost and in 1 Pet 3:21 says "21 Baptism, now saves you.
Romans says that in our baptisms we are buried with Christ and we are raised with Christ and Colosians 2 says that in our Baptisms our hearts are circumcised by the hand of Christ.
You are capriciously denying what these verses say and mean because you have a presupposition about baptism that contradicts these clear passages.
I've been where you are. I didn't start as a Lutheran I was a hard-core Nazarene Evangelical for a long time. I was forced to deal with what these verses say.
Once I did honest exegesis on these passages I had to change my mind (repent) because I was wrong.
I don't know how these things are true. But, the passages are CLEAR what baptism does.
I affirm the scriptures you are denying them.
Posted by: Chris Rosebrough | July 12, 2007 at 03:39 PM
"I affirm the scriptures you are denying them."
No, I affirm the Scriptures YOU are denying them. It seems that instead of having a "comparing Scripture with Scripture" dialogue, you continue to go back to such rhetoric.
Shall I list the people who are denying the Scriptures? Spurgeon, Wesley, MacArthur, and on and on goes the list. The "inconsistent hermeneutics" and "a great dodge" and "denying Scripture" phrases are self serving.
Let me add one more name to the Scripture denyers...Ken Silva. I'm sure he'll be happy to know that.
Posted by: Henry (Rick) Frueh | July 12, 2007 at 05:16 PM
Rick,
So far you've not supplied any verses to support your position, only rationalization and conjecture.
I am not dialoging with MacArthur, Wesley or Silva. I am dialoging with you.
I could supply a star-studded list of theologians who believe the same way I do. This doesn't prove anything. The only thing that matters is what the Bible says.
Again, I've supplied the verses that prove the position I am defending. They are clear and none of the rationalizations you've supplied to brush aside what these verses are saying has even remotely overturned them.
Again the verses I've supplied say that baptism washes away sins, saves, in our baptisms we are buried with Christ and we are raised with Christ and our hearts are circumcised by Christ.
It seems very clear to me.
Please deal with the passages.
Posted by: Chris Rosebrough | July 12, 2007 at 05:37 PM
"It seems very clear to me."
OK. So be it, but you have portrayed my position as illegitimate and as if someone is shallow who espouses such. I will not dialogue with someone who says such things because it is not a dialogue, it is a monologue.
I thought differently when I visited your blog.
Posted by: Henry (Rick) Frueh | July 12, 2007 at 05:59 PM
"Again the verses I've supplied say that baptism washes away sins, saves, in our baptisms we are buried with Christ and we are raised with Christ and our hearts are circumcised by Christ."
That is heresy and aligns with John Paul II..
Posted by: henry frueh | July 12, 2007 at 06:01 PM
Rick,
You've called my position heresy. That is a great starting point! I'm not offended by it in the slightest.
I invite you to show me from God's word that is the case.
Tell you what. If you can prove to me that my position is heresy by using God's word. I will repent.
You know my position and you know the verses I have supplied to support this position.
Have at me. I am looking forward to seeing your texts.
Posted by: Chris Rosebrough | July 12, 2007 at 07:43 PM
Water is H2O, it is nothing, it has no power to work anything. Christ has all power. Christ works salvation!
You gotta love these Solo Scriptura no-church people. This statement completely contradicts John 3:5:
Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
The Protestant Reformation taught Sola Scriptura -Scripture alone as the fine authority in matters of faith and life. It did not teach SOLO Scriptura -me and my Bible against all of history and tradition. That's liberalism, and it flies directly in the face of idiotic remarks such as "Water is H20! It is nothing". Christ said the opposite.
Posted by: Mark Burns | July 12, 2007 at 08:13 PM
*final, not fine. Sorry.
Posted by: Mark Burns | July 12, 2007 at 08:14 PM
Christ never said that water was something more than water. Christ also said that one must eat his body and drink his blood. He also said that one must Hate his mother and father. I don't think that he was speaking literally. You have to exegete the scripture correctly.
Scripture also says that if anyone "confesses with his mouth that Jesus is Lord" then he will be saved. (I once knew a man that would ask people if they believed that Jesus was God's son, then he'd ask them to say "Jesus is Lord" then he would tell them that they were born again. You would argue that and say, "but that is surely absurd" and then he would say "but scripture says 'if you confess with your mouth' Why is this? Because he is simply reading the scripture without truly understanding what it means. This is what you are doing. You can throw around scripture all day long. So can Satan. He did it with Jesus in the wilderness. But what does it MEAN? You can't just read it and make it mean what you want. What do you do with the verse that says you must hate your mother and father?
And to Steve. You said, "can a person be saved without baptism? Yes." If this is true, then that means that something other than baptism has the ability to forgive sins. What do you do with that?
What else besides baptism is able to wash away sins?(that question is for everyone not just steve)
Posted by: dogma | July 12, 2007 at 11:21 PM
Dogma,
When we take Holy Communion, we eat Christ's body and drink Christ's blood that is in the bread and wine. While I cannot explain how this happens, I take Christ at his word. Even St. Paul treats this as a fact.
As for your question, since Scripture only states the Word and Sacraments are the means by which God's grace is given out to sinners, then that all we can say.
Posted by: Steve Newell | July 13, 2007 at 07:17 AM
Steve, You didn't address what Christ said about hating your mother and father. "If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, he cannot be my disciple."
Posted by: dogma | July 13, 2007 at 01:08 PM
If Christ is speaking figurative language then you treat it as such. Likewise when Christ speaks as being literal then we treat is as such. Only a simplistic reading of scripture doesn't take this into account. Also the context of when and to whom he is talking to is important.
At the Lord's Supper, Christ is speaking is very serious terms and is using very straight forward language. The early church treated these words as literal and symbolic. Paul asks the question is not the bread they are eating the body of Christ and is not the wine they are drinking the blood of Christ?
Is Christ the lamb of God that takes away the sins of the World literal or figurative? It's both.
Posted by: Steve Newell | July 13, 2007 at 02:49 PM
"you must hate your mother."
Should this be treated as literal? You seem to say that it should be treated as both literal and symbolic. I understand how to read it in a symbolic sense, but you're going to have to help me understanding it in a literal way. Please explain how should I literally hate my mother?
Posted by: dogma | July 13, 2007 at 03:33 PM