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Simon

this is an abomination!

there is no justification that can make this right.

i hate to admit this but i've been spewing profanities at my computer screen. Lord I beg for your forgiveness.


 Bob Wolff

WOW!

Unbelievable!

Disheartening!

Does this "pastor" actually think that this song brought people to Christ?

What in that instrumental
version could have stirred these people?

It sounds like the "pastor" thinks that these people would not have "met Christ" without this song.

It was his excellent idea that brought these people to Christ.

Is this the true condition of the church today?

Father, please expose the wolves corrupting the flock.

Ed Ryan

God is the creator of all things. All people (including the members of AC/DC) are created in God's Image. The talents that people have to write and play music come from God. Music itself cannot be evil. There is nothing wrong with the music being played. It's a very well written song, it's something that brings people together, and they performed it well to the glory of God.

That being said, this pastor should be fired and subject to some old-fashioned church discipline. How did he even become a pastor with an attitude and a theology like that? He doesn't really seem as interested in calling people to repentance as he is in flipping off the church and daring anybody to tell him what to do. Even if we gave him the benefit of the doubt that 110 people actually "met Jesus" that day, what "Jesus" did they meet? Were they really given a representation of the gospel based on the Solas of our faith? Did they clearly understand the depravity of their sin, the holiness of God and what he demands, their futility to meet that standard on their own, the need for a blood sacrifice, the propitiation of Christ's blood shed on the cross so that the wrath of a just and Holy God could be satisfied and Christ's perfect righteousness could be imputed to them? And of the ones who by grace truly repented of their sins and received the gift of Jesus' righteousness, how many of them will be made disciples of the true Jesus of the Bible?

I hope that people aren't upset about the fact that somebody in church performed well and played a song that people recognized. Most of our well known and treasured hymns of the faith are written to tunes that were originally drinking songs or other popular songs. If you're upset about the music and the props, you're totally missing the point. The problem is that any non-christians their (and unfortunately many of the christians there) see this guy as an authoritative spokesperson for Jesus and based on this little clip it doesn't sound like this guy even knows the Jesus of the Bible.
Sure Jesus did offend the religious people of the day and he was called a glutton and a drunkard and a friend of tax collectors and prostitutes. Jesus was apparently a very popular guy who got invited to all of the parties. I can see Jesus eating wings, enjoying a nice pint of guiness, and telling knock knock jokes to hookers (not my original thought), but he never sinned and he didn't do any of it just to piss off the pharisees and make everybody think he was cool.
He was approachable, people trusted him, sinners were comforted by him and he pointed everybody to the Father. Everything he did was in love and was done to glorify God.
This pastor in the film doesn't seem as interested in glorifying God as he is in glorifying himself. If only more people cared about doctrine so they could actually give a biblically sound, scripturally based, loving rebuke to this guy.

jared

I think that there really isn't much of this pastors theology shown in this short video clip first of all. Big deal if the worship band used an AC/DC song, especially if they played an version of it. Paul used aspects of Greek culture to relate to the people at the Areopagus, was he wrong in doing that. as Ed has pointed out many of the melodies of beloved hymns were drinking songs before people wrote words that made them hymns. If playing an instrumental version of this AC/DC song is an abomination then you'd better also get rid of a large number of beloved hymns as well.
As for the comment that pointed to the idea that these people could not have met the real Jesus, how can we make that judgment at all, this church seems to have a theology which is based on the sinfulness of man and the need for a relationship with Jesus for salvation, check their belief on their website, it seems repentance is something that this church calls for. furthermore how ever ones talks about their experience in which they encounter Jesus, meeting Jesus is not something that can happen without a person realizing their sin and his holiness and their need for the forgiveness and grace that he offers if we only repent and receive his grace.
Perhaps this pastor is a little Arrogant, but perhaps this pastor is willing to do whatever it takes to connect people with God. Perhaps he is truly passionate to bring people to a realization of their sin and need for salvation and is willing to take risks in order to do this. I don't know if I would say this guy glorifying is not bringing Glory to God, I don't think that his doctrine is an issue, again check their website.

paul

This pastor isn't nearly as arrogant as 75% of the people that comment on this board. The music has been defended adequately, so I will not even comment on that.
This comment really cracked me up: "Did they clearly understand the depravity of their sin, the holiness of God and what he demands, their futility to meet that standard on their own, the need for a blood sacrifice, the propitiation of Christ's blood shed on the cross so that the wrath of a just and Holy God could be satisfied and Christ's perfect righteousness could be imputed to them? And of the ones who by grace truly repented of their sins and received the gift of Jesus' righteousness, how many of them will be made disciples of the true Jesus of the Bible?"
I wonder if the thief on the cross understood all of that? I wonder if that was what Jesus meant when he said "If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God has raised him from the dead, then you will be saved." Was Jesus just pandoring to seekers? Was he diluting the Gospel? Was he abandoning the true Gospel? Or could it really be that that is all that is required....just like Jesus said?

paul

Obviously in the above comment I meant that I wonder if the apostle Paul meant that, not Jesus. My bad for the mistype.

Kelly

Please, please, my friends...

"Most of our well known and treasured hymns of the faith are written to tunes that were originally drinking songs or other popular songs. If you're upset about the music and the props, you're totally missing the point."

"as Ed has pointed out many of the melodies of beloved hymns were drinking songs before people wrote words that made them hymns. If playing an instrumental version of this AC/DC song is an abomination then you'd better also get rid of a large number of beloved hymns as well."

This is NOT TRUE. This is an URBAN LEGEND! As in, a myth that is false, but widespread and used to justify all sorts of outrageous behavior in God's house.

Yes, music, even instrumental music, carries a message. I know few brides that would want to march down the aisle to the tune of "Row, Row, Row Your Boat." The music in the service of God's house is there to support and carry the Word. Though it didn't happen at all in this case, and there isn't any one right tune for hymns, there is most definitely such a thing as a musically inappropriate carrier of God's Word in the context of worshipping in God's presence. If you're picturing Jesus walking into the local synagogue or the temple and suggesting that they cut out the reverence of the worship of God, and replace it with a little pop culture fun to appeal to the masses, you've got another think coming.

Church isn't the same thing as Talent Night. There's a time and place for each.

Kelly

A couple of links if you really want confirmation:

http://www.gbod.org/worship/default.asp?act=reader&item_id=2639&loc_id=17,627,628

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/pjones25/articles/Luther.htm

Gene

Can a person be a Christian and a Muslim at the same time?

This Priest says YES

http://webandchurch.blogspot.com/2007/08/muslim-priest.html

Insane!

jared

Folk music would have been the popular music and just as bars today play popular music folk music would have been heard in taverns. whether or not they were drinking songs is not the issue. I take back the use of the phrase "drinking songs" instead i will use folk music.

paul

I read through the articles posted by Kelly. I guess since they say it is not true, that should be accepted as fact.
The idea that some music (not lyrics, just music) is "Christian" while other music is not is absolutely absurd.
The fact that one (or both) of those authors does not like "heavy metal" music does not make it distasteful to God.

Kelly

It's not a matter of whether or not a style of music is distasteful to God. It's a matter of whether certain musical vehicles are appropriate for worship in the assembly of God's people; and convey a sense of holiness, reverence, and dignity; and if they are a sensible and fitting match for the Word being communicated. The entire Christian Church throughout history, regardless of denomination, pretty well understood this until the 1970s. I can do all sorts of silly and irreverent things at a wedding reception, so long as they are not sinful. I believe God enjoys a good time. But when it comes to the wedding church service, that would be a different can of worms. A church service ought to look, sound, and smell different than the bit of life that consists of me simply entertaining myself and others. Music has a different function in these two spheres. It's not so much a matter of one being right and another wrong.

Jared, re-read the articles and take the high road like Paul just did. Those who reformed the church in the 16th century weren't into making church as much like the nearest Folk Fest as possible. They were conservative in nature and wanted to keep the best that the Church had to offer, only reforming out the errors. I'd suggest doing a bit of research as to what the church of that time was up to and why, rather than making the assumptions that you need to justify your positions and then having to retract them.

paul

Why do you want to put requirements on the church service that the Bible doesn't. The Bible doesn't describe a certain style of music that is appropriate. If that is the only music that is appropriate, why didn't God give us those guidelines in Scripture?

jared

I am taking the high road, i admitted that i was wrong in saying hymns were drinking songs. The article did say that folk songs were used, if you have ever listened to traditional contra dance music which was popular at the time you could understand why i would make the assumption that these have much in common with hymns. Folk music lasted because it was popular, i am not talking about folk music of to day, that is your assupmtion, even the use of traditional folk music is still the use of something that would have been understood as profane for the purposes of worship.
Paul's point about the lack of any description of style of music that is fitting for christian worship in the bible should be acknowledged. Yes in we are told of instruments that were used in temple worship but that what else are we told. We know very little about the types of songs the early church sang. We do know that they sang hymns and spiritual songs but does that describe the music? I just think we need to be open to risking and trying new things. We should also talk about it without being judgmental. Methods do change but the what the heart of a person seeking to serve God, i don't think, does.

Kelly

*My* point was that there is music that is *inappropriate* for worship, and as much as you'd like to deny it I think you'd agree. Regardless of what the heart of the person was, I doubt very much that singing a hymn to the tune of, say, the theme song to "Gilligan's Island," would be an appropriate conduit for God's Word and a reflection of the holiness of his presence. Music is NOT neutral. That is what the world of the 1970s tried to tell us, and that was simply the result of the mess of subjectivism the church found itself thrust into at the time.

We're told an awful lot about worship in the OT temple, since you asked. God gave precise instructions as to the practices of the priests and even the aesthetic content. We are free in Christ to vary traditions from place to place. We are not free to chuck out everything reverent, in the name of "Christian freedom," and start turning worship into entertainment. The early church knew that; it goes without saying! And this is why their gatherings were very much in the same vein as Jewish synagogue worship. (And yes, PSALMS, hymns and spiritual songs does describe the music. Especially, that Colossians passage described the Word of Christ being communicated through these things.)

Our own reasons do matter for the changes we seek to make, too. Much of the change that the Boomers made in the 70s onward was inherently selfish and reflected the disease of individualism rampant at the time, and even now in the church. Many Christians today have simply never heard any arguments contrary to the notion of custom-tailoring church to the personal preferences of the individual, rather than regarding it as a transcendent and corporate experience, deliberately *unlike* our Monday-to-Saturday existence. I can say that the younger generations after the Boomers are finding this a wonderfully refreshing reality after a long run of cheesy 80s pop songs in church.

Jim from Old Truth

For Paul (above) and others who think we are overloading the theological requirements of the message being preached, I ask: How about repentance? I listened to the entire sermon that this clip came from and Repentance was not discussed. The Apostles even evangelized by telling people to believe and repent (see Acts). The thief on the cross obviously was repentant.

The "confess with your mouth" verse is often like a pet verse that gets invoked, all by itself, in isolation. The real idea with this verse is more that you'll confess before the world, not just in a church cloister by standing when the pastor tells you to, in front of a bunch of other Christians who are going to root for you. It reminds me of the assumed magic of the "Sinner's Prayer" when I hear Christians using Selective Citing to call upon this one verse (confess with your mouth) as some sort of incantation that's supposed to save you.

For anyone who thinks all forms of music are fine for worship, so long as they have Christian lyrics, I invite you to sample the Christian group called Zombie Gutz:
http://www.myspace.com/zombiegutz

The "bar songs" urban legend about hymns came from a misunderstanding that many of them were written in "bar form" which is a type of musical structure. I just noticed Perry Noble making this same mistake the other day, in an effort to justify the rock music that gets played at his church:
http://tinyurl.com/3d8bay

asuzette

There are many hymns in Gods Word. Those & the many written in these 2000 yrs are all rich & wonderful examples of what is acceptable & appropiate for worship. Is there a shortage of praise, worship songs & hymns that we should resort to the unedifying & Ungodly clanging of ACDC ?

Adam

I'm not that offended that this happened in a church BUT I wouldn't do it. At the same time, I don't know what the state of the congregation was. Most importantly, when all is said and done, playing AC/DC in church is NOT a sin like the quote at the end would like to claim.

Jeremy Avery

Funny, I actually do know a pastor who set Christian lyrics to Gilligan's Island. Sing the words to Amazing Grace to the Gilligan's Island tune - it fits perfectly. And the guy who did that is about as conservative as they come otehrwise (Brett Meador, pastor of Athey Creek Christian Fellowship, also has radio ministry.) I don't like it's style, but I don't believe it is wrong.

I agree with Adam: it wasn't sin, but I wouldn't do it. I would think it wouldn't be wise (THAT particular song and band, at any rate), but since it is not sin could we not say this: every church has the same mission (The Great Commission) but a different mandate to accomplish that mission. Some churches are quiet and contemplative, other joyful and bouncy, still other somber and grave. Each of those kinds of churches is reaching out to different people in different ways, ministering to God, and not one part of the Body is more or less important than the other.

I don't know this pastor's heart: it could very well be that he is just being an asshole trying to get the goat of other Christians and prove how much "spiritual cool" he has - in fact, I believe that many of the pastors who are engaged in this ministry style may well be doing it for fleshly reasons. But I see people in evengelical churches doing the same thing, different form, only their flesh is taking pleasure in being "moral", or "Biblical foundational" while they lack love and have no compulsion to reach out to the throngs of youth that are dying without Jesus.

Me? I'm just glad that, whether their motives are pure or not, the Good News is being preached. And as for myself: I want pure motives. But how many of us can say that is so of our own hearts? Not even Paul was exactly sure. I am just going to throw everything in with Jesus.

Rod cabello

dude!!! where do i have to attend to have services like this !!! keep on rocking and remember.. jesus loved rock n' roll too XD

Rod cabello

dude!!! where do i have to attend to have services like this !!! keep on rocking and remember.. jesus loved rock n' roll too XD

wilson

Please explain how any AC/DC song fits into "letting the word of Christ dwell in you...as you sing"?:

Colossians 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom, and as you sing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs with gratitude in your hearts to God.

Ephesians 5:15-20

15 Be very careful, then, how you live—not as unwise but as wise, 16 making the most of every opportunity, because the days are evil. 17 Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the Lord's will is. 18 Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit. 19 Speak to one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs. Sing and make music in your heart to the Lord, 20 always giving thanks to God the Father for everything, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 4:29
29 Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen.

Mark

Just in case anybody else actually reads this... Unless someone mentioned it and I missed it, the song was played, sans words, while a video played in the background with people that were explaining their views on God, heaven, and hell. The series was "Illuminate," and as a person who loves many types of music, it was amazingly well done and very powerful. Perry Noble is a fantastic person whom I respect very much, and it is pretty awesome that people can tell there non-Christian friends that this song was played. This church isn't for the pious "perfect" Christians that attack other Christians... Oh, wait... That would make them... *gasp* Imperfect!

wilson

Mark

You said "...and it is pretty awesome that people can tell there non-Christian friends that this song was played."

I can just imagine a conversation with my work mate

(cue dream-type music)

"what did you do on the weekend?"
"i went to church"
"oh yeah"
"we heard AC DC's hell's bells."
"cool. I listen to ACDC at home. It's on my iPod. I love the line where it goes

I'll give you black sensations up and down your spine
If you're into evil you're a friend of mine
See my white light flashing as I split the night
'Cause if Good's on the left,
Then I'm stickin' to the right.

"are they the words?"
"yeah. what's that doing in your church. it's not really a Christian song."
"umm..."

What do you say then? A work colleague of mine boasts about going to hell and burning. He jokes about it. He's almost proud to be going (at least that's the facade he puts on). And he jokes about taking another work mate with him and they'll help do the work down there. This is sad. Really very sad.

But this is exactly the same attitude as AC/DC. They are proud and boast about their evil. Their sinful hearts permeate their songs. Look up some of their other songs like TNT, Burning Alive and umm HIGHWAY TO HELL. How is this song going to help my friend understand the good news of salvation in Christ Jesus? And what about people who used to listen and indulge in ACDC because that was their lifestyle? How is it helping them? The message the world gets is

Christians are happy to have songs by people who hate God in their meetings.

The world loves it when Christians are hypocritical. It's perfect ammunition to shoot down Christians. All in the name of relevance?

Instead, Colossians 4 says

And pray for us, too, that God may open a door for our message, so that we may proclaim the mystery of Christ, for which I am in chains. 4 Pray that I may proclaim it clearly, as I should. 5 Be wise in the way you act toward outsiders; make the most of every opportunity. 6 Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone.

We need to stop hiding behind our relevance. There's so much work to do and so little time. Make the most of every opportunity.

John from Down Under

Mark, may I encourage you to take Wilson’s response as a thought provoking and wise admonition, kind of ‘speaking the truth in love’ and not just dismiss it as ‘negative’ (grab it while you can because the typical responses on this site are cyanide soaked opinions not thought provoking debates).

As an Australian I can tell you I am not that proud of our most famous export (AC/DC). I will also confess that I’m guilty of finding the Hell’s Bells tune one the most catchy heavy metal beats I ever heard, even though I am not a rock music fan. But as much as I like the tune, when I think of where it comes from and what it represents, it sends shivers up my spine.

AC/DC did not just sing about hell for commercial reasons, they were OBSESSED with the theme of hell. Google their songs and you’ll see that the majority of their lyrics are ALL about hell. To take it a step further, they don’t just mention or describe hell, they glorify it.

I have a VHS tape at home (remember those?) from the early 90’s where Angus Young is quoted saying ‘Someone else is steering me. I’m just along for the ride. I become possessed when I'm on stage’ It’s chilling stuff. These people glorify the very place that Jesus was skewered on a lump of wood for us to escape. Hell represents God’s final judgement on the wicked.

I understand you believe it was ok because the music was played at church WITHOUT the words. I have no doubt that those who thought of the concept had the best intentions, but do the ends justify the means? You can still make a point about AC/DC’s practices without giving them air play. Muting the words, is like having a pole dancer wearing a bra. You still know what hides behind it.

Interestingly enough for anyone reading this, here in Australia we now have a new Pizza franchise by the name of Hell’s Pizza who have gone to great lengths to represent the hell theme. From the name of their menu items, to Hellthy choices, to recorded announcements and the T-Shirts that employees wear.

John From Down Under

Oops!! Sorry for the blunder. I hadn't wacthed the video before I posted my last blog and realized the Angus Young quote is there as well....trust me I really have a VHS tape from the early 90's with this quote on it.

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