If you didn't see Rick Warren's Christmas Sermon on Fox News then you missed a dooosie of a sermon and by dooosie I don't mean that it was a good sermon I mean that it was a bad sermon.
This year's "Christmas Sermon" at Saddleback is a perfect example of the quintessential Warren sermon.
First of all, the sermon was chock full of verses ripped from their context which were cited from really bad paraphrases like "The Message". Warren delivered these verses in such a fashion that they didn't even remotely resemble what the Bible actually says and means in the original languages. (Since, when did this practice become okay?)
Secondly, his sermon barely mentioned sin and the entire context of what we need a savior for. Instead of giving us the Biblical context of sin and the gospel proclamation of a savior being born to us Warren, like a used car salesman, listed out 3 benefits that people could receive by accepting God's "Christmas Present" to them. (Warren and his apologists call this approach the 'Positive Gospel'). Here were the promised benefits.
1. Presence - You lose your loneliness
2. Pardon - Jesus gives you a Mulligan, a 'do-over'
3. Purpose - You find out who you are (discover your purpose)
The "benefit" that I want to focus on for this post is the second one, Jesus gives you a Mulligan. Here is some video from that segment of Warren's sermon.
Warren says that God wants to give us a 'second chance', a do-over and a Mulligan. Is this the Biblical Gospel? Is the 'good news' of the New Testament the proclamation that Jesus is offering you and me an opportunity for a 'do-over'? Before you answer, consider the implications of this 'gospel' very carefully.
I play golf nearly every week. My USGA Handicap Index is a 15.3. You could say that I have a lot of experience with Mulligans. Here is how a Mulligan works. When a golfer stands on the tee box, addresses the ball then takes a swing and finds to his dismay that rather than heading straight down the fairway his ball instead flies off into the woods or into a house or into a water hazard. Making a mistake like this on the tee box is not only embarrassing, it can be very costly. When a golfer finds himself in this situation (if his playing partners are feeling forgiving) he can invoke the Mulligan and re-tee his ball and take another swing. There is a catch. If your second shot is just as ugly as your first, there are no third chances. You cannot take a second Mulligan.
So if you take Warren's Mulligan metaphor and mistakenly think that is what the Biblical gospel is all about then you are going to believe a false gospel.
The Bible does NOT teach that Jesus Christ came to Earth and died on the cross so that you can have a 'do-over'. If that were the case then our salvation would still be based upon us and our keeping of God's law. That is like saying that we messed up the first time, so Jesus is giving us a 'second chance' but if we mess up another time there is no hope for us. Quite frankly, I don't need one do-over, I need hundreds of do-overs every day.
This whole do-over/Mulligan metaphor that Warren used is at best wrong and at worst is a 'false gospel'.
So what would be an appropriate Golf illustration that conveys the truth of the Biblical Gospel?
If you want to use a golf analogy to convey the true 'Good News' of the scripture it would sound like this.
Pretend you are a terrible golfer (for most there is not much imagination needed here). Now pretend that your eternal salvation depends on you scoring a perfect round of Golf (par or better for the entire round) at Bethpage Black (arguably the toughest golf course on the planet) and the course has been set up for U.S. Open conditions (7400 yards long, 8 inch rough and greens so fast it's like putting in a bath tub). But, wait just to make things even more difficult, the devil has thrown in gail force winds that are swirling and gusting as high a 60 miles an hour.
To give you an idea of how difficult this feat is, Tiger Woods at the 2002 U.S. Open at Bethpage Black, with practically perfect weather conditions was the ONLY golfer with a score that was UNDER par. Phil Mickleson was the only other golfer that scored an even par for the tournament. Every other golfer was above par for the tournament. But under these course conditions not even Tiger Woods has any hope of being saved. Sadly, even if Jesus gave you a Mulligan then there would still be no hope of your being saved. One 'do-over' would be quickly gobbled up at Bethpage Black under these conditions.
So then how can you be 'saved' in this scenario?
The Biblical Gospel teaches us that even under these impossible conditions, Jesus Christ shot the perfect round of golf for you at Bethpage Black and is offering you HIS scorecard as your own. He's already taken your scorecard, the one with all the sins on it, and he's atoned for those sins on the cross. In return, He will give you His perfect scorecard and let you sign your name to it as if you were the one who shot that round.
Do you see the difference between these two golf metaphors and the implications they carry regarding the Gospel?
The 'gospel' Warren preached this Christmas was the 'gospel' of the Mulligan and the do-over. But this is really no gospel at all. It puts our salvation back on our shoulders and puts us in an impossible situation by requiring us to get it right the second time.
The Gospel that the Bible teaches isn't about 'do-overs', its about what Christ has already DONE for you. He has won your salvation and is offering you a full and true pardon, complete forgiveness and His perfect righteousness as a gift.
There is a big difference between Warren's Mulligan Theory of the Atonement and the Biblical Gospel. Which are you going to put your trust in?
amen, kim couldn't agree more with what you said/wrote.i personally don't listen to mr. warren and don't care to. the reason being is when the church i attend did the pdl 40 days i thought ( basing this on without even reading it or hearing much about it) that it was the latest fad to hit the church, especially with the world endorsing it. then 6 months or so later i joined a wed night study group on it. my first impressions weren't good. why all the different versions with scripture and why are most of them paraphase's? some didn't fit what was being said especially when backed up with context.it didn't make sense to me.
like kim said im no theologian, but iv'e been a CHRISTian for 27 yrs. i thank GOD for when i was a babe in CHRIST, i listen to good bible teaching on the radio. dr j. vernon magee. dr. green (from s. carolina) to name a few. solid biblical teachers. the sunday school i attended was taught by a man who passed out pages of lessons clearly backed up by scripture. i have no idea how to speak or read greek or hebrew. i interprete scripture with scripture before any other resources.
2 timothy 2:15 study to show thyself approved unto GOD, a workman that needethnot to be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of TRUTH.
2 TIMOTHY 3:14-16 but continue in the things which you have learned and have been assured of, knowing of whom you have learned them; and that from a child you have known the HOLY SCRIPTURES, which are able to make you wise unto salvation through faith in CHRIST JESUS.all scripture is give by inspiration of GOD, and is profitable for doctrine,for reproof, for correstion, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of GOD may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works
Posted by: chuck | January 02, 2008 at 10:00 PM
"CHRIS: I think the solution here is for the two of us to have a public debate on whether or not Rick Warren twists God's Word.
RA: Why? So you can just repeat what you've already said to me a dozen times, or so I can repeat myself to you? So that your side can say, "Amen, Amen, he's a heretic," or so my side can say, "Yes, Yes, see, that's the truth"?"
If you really believe this, why are you even still here? Give it up and move on...
Rick Warren's "Purpose Driven Life" book is clear documentation of how to abuse the Scriptures. Rick Warren's willingness to sign the A Common Word Between Us and You document should have been a clear wake-up call to anyone the least bit willing to discern what he's really about.
Posted by: Tim | January 02, 2008 at 10:01 PM
With a view to not reinventing the wheel, I'd recommend anyone who trusts Warren with Scripture go to this article and give it a good read.
Posted by: Tim | January 02, 2008 at 10:29 PM
Please PRAY for this man he is lost and heading for HELL and he is taking many people with him. May GOD have mercy on him and the likes of any more like him.
Posted by: Frank Rollberg | January 02, 2008 at 11:02 PM
Robert: "2. Rick warren is not perfect and has his own interpretation of scripture."
That is exactly the point we are making!
In 2 Peter chapter 1, vs 20, the Apostle Peter states : "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation."
21."For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost."
There it is as recorded in Holy Scripture; Rick Warren is not allowed to have "His own interpretation of Scripture".
He can of course write books,teach,sell tapes,DVDs,etc of "his interpretation" of Holy Scripture. But he does it in the face of a Just and Holy God. May God have mercy on his soul.
Posted by: Kathy | January 02, 2008 at 11:13 PM
I think had I watched it it would've put me to sleep.
Posted by: Campingman | January 03, 2008 at 03:19 AM
This really popped out at me:
"That's what it says TO YOU - a seminary grad interpreting t through smeinary-trained ears. But it may say, and indeed I know it did say, something diffent to others"
That is plain old postmodern thinking...
Posted by: Tim | January 03, 2008 at 09:39 AM
Not to reduce this to its simplest form and ignore the complexities of the problems with Richard Abanes, with whom I've had many a lengthy and apparently unfruitful discussion, but much like many of the defenders of all things Rick Warren, Bill Hybels or Emergent Pastor (fill in the blank), there is much effort to defned the actions and words of men but seemingly lost in the entire consciousness of these defenders or in this case Richard Abanes, is the thought to defend the One whom they profess to believe in.
How tragic it is, but consistently in my discussions with people about concerning trends and disconcerting pastors activities, that is an underlying condition of the conversation. They are more interested in defending men than defending God.
Posted by: Bill | January 03, 2008 at 10:01 AM
I love this comment "They are more interested in defending men than defending God."
That is because God doesn't need me (or you....or anyone else) to defend him. He is fully capable of defending himself. That is laughable to me that you think you are doing almighty God a service by "defending" him.
Posted by: paul | January 03, 2008 at 12:04 PM
This post is the most ridiculous of all the ridiculous criticism that has been post on this ridiculous blog.
I too am a golfer and have been a golfer for 20 plus years. Your statement that you can only have one mulligan is very wrong. You can have as many mulligans as the people you are playing with want to give you. I have played in tournaments where by the rules of the tournament, each player got 3 mulligans a side (a total of 6). The thing is, there are no rules to mulligans. They are not in the rule book. In fact, that is the point. The mulligan is an act of grace by those you are playing with. As with most (if not all) analogies, this one breaks down somewhere, but it does communicate. This whole post is "much ado about nothing". To use another golf analogy, that is par for the course here.
Posted by: paul | January 03, 2008 at 12:09 PM
Robert,
I understand the need you feel to stick up for Mr. Warren, especially since he is your pastor, but is it possible, and please just hear myself and others out, is it possible that he is doing more than just being "loose" with Sciptures, which by the way, that is not something to just be dismissed. God's Word has lot's of instructions for His pastors down here, and it just breaks my heart when folks take lightly, playing fast and loose with His Word.
Robert, please look at some of the research out there on Mr. Warren. Go back and read just a few of the things I pointed out in my post up above yours. I know for myself, and I'm sure the many others here, we are not trying to insinuate that you or others at Saddleback are not smart people. I have found that very intelligent people, because they want to be thought of as open minded and reasonable, will give more time and leeway to different ideas and beliefs. I consider myself a fairly smart person, and it took me ten years to get out of some unbiblical teaching I was sitting under. I didn't want to believe that a pastor I loved so dearly could be decieved himself, and was passing that along to us. I also thought I was too smart to fall for false teaching. I had it in my mind that I would know it if I saw it. That it would be wrapped up in satanic garb, with a golden calf dance, etc. LOL You know, just like the nations around Israel, or what Moses saw of the Israelites when he came down the mountain. I had to finally admit I didn't know my Scriptures like I should, and that counterfeits are just that, so close to the real thing, you may not see it at first, or it hurts too much to admit something's wrong, so we ignore it.
Robert, God's Word says that folks will start looking for pastors and teachers to tell them what they want to hear instead of what they need to hear. I've read many of Mr. Warren's books, and you have to admit, a lot of it seems to be motivational, pump you up kind of stuff, don't you think. Nothing wrong with being happy or listening to a pep talk now and then, but that's not a pastor's job. It's to teach the whole Gospel, not just the parts we like, or are easy to understand, or don't pick on us too bad.
If you do decide to research a little of what Mr. Warren has been saying in articles, conferences, his books etc., you'll also find, like I pointed out in my above post, that he points people to other speakers and teachers who teach another gospel and another god. This isn't made up Robert. All of this can be backed up with Mr. Warren's own words. I'm not trying to be cruel, but these things have to be pointed out, and folks do have to be warned to look more closely at those who say they work for our Lord. God's Word also tells us that, to be good bereans, search His Word.
Robert, I love it so much that you and your family want to be in a good church home, and want to learn God's Word more. I just believe there are some questions here about Mr. Warren that need answered, because he has such a huge influence over so many people, being in the public like he is. I say all this Robert, because I do care so much for you and everyone out there who want to obey our Savior, and love him so, but I know that the devil is trying his hardest to decieve as many as possible, and none of us should think ourselves so above being had by a wolf in sheeps clothing. Please Robert, go and check some of this out. It's not a waste of time. If folks get a gospel they think is the true one, but isn't, it's a life and death situation. It's a great use of our time to make sure we know what's being taught in our churches. Sorry this is so long. My heart just aches so much over this, I go on and on sometimes. Thank you.
Posted by: kim | January 03, 2008 at 12:48 PM
This is fascinating: superficiality is usually the charge; in the initial comment from Mr. Abanes, it’s the defense.
Posted by: Robert Warren (no relation) | January 03, 2008 at 01:03 PM
UGHHHH!!!!I am looking for the word "mulligan" in the back of my bible and through out it and I can't find it!!!!! I don't know how to get saved?????? No, just being silly. I am certain Jesus did not on the cross say, " Forgive them father, give them a mulligan." "Okay, now it is finished".
Simply put: Warren needs to preach the pure gospel and you can't get away from the sin issue. You can try your hardest to make peoples lives better through education and food support and diseases being wiped out and medication and such, but in the end, if the human soul is dead, nothing of true eternal value matters, when you are only concerned with the temporal and physical. That is the concern of many who question the things that Warren says and does. Let me hear the truth about the PURPOSE of JESUS coming to planet earth: to make people born again spiritually, first and foremost. Until those topics consistently come from that man's mouth, I will not stop waring others about his poor teachings and sloppy "gospel". Peoples souls are at stake and 2 Peter and Jude have a lot to say about false preachers playing fast and loose with GOd's holy and inspired word and the blackest judgement that awaits them. Truly....turn or burn, bible teachers for whom the world system loves. See the warnings so clearly outlined in the Bible per the heart of the Lord. He isn't playing games here!
Posted by: Teresa | January 03, 2008 at 01:55 PM
Paul,
I knew someone would jump in with that comment so let me set the record straight here and now, I know God doesn't need me to defend Him, but the point isn't that, the point is that RA and other spend much of their breath and writings in defending a man rather than defending a reverence for and exalting of the holiness and righteousness and sovereignty of Almighty God.
RW doesn't show an esteem for God's word, nor does RA, sorry but that is quite clearly at the heart of the issue. A reading of Isaiah 66:1-2 should bring to light the danger of this and the importance of not playing fast and loose with the word of God.
Posted by: Bill | January 03, 2008 at 02:32 PM
"That's what it says TO YOU - a seminary grad interpreting t through smeinary-trained ears. But it may say, and indeed I know it did say, something diffent to others -- i.e., those who are not obsessing over it and picking it apart like some theological treatise. Can you not see/accept that? Dude, with all due respect, get your head out of seminary and get it into the real world."
Words do indeed have meanings, and someone who does not consider his words to see how they will sound to members of different groups is foolish. Seminary, moreover, is a valuable training for life in the real world.
Posted by: Child of Immanuel | January 03, 2008 at 03:38 PM
Did anyone have a chance to read the letter from the NAE (National Association of Evangelicals) written to Muslim leaders apologizing for the crusades? The letter also apologized for excessive force against muslims in the current War on Terror.
The writers of this letter asked forgiveness from the ALL Merciful One and the muslim community. I assume that All Merciful One is a syncretized version of the TRUE (Christian)God and the false god, Allah.
It also seems like the writers were implicitly denying the Trinity in the letter.
The reason that I write this is because the letter was endorsed by many pastors, including Rick Warren and Bill Hybels. There names were listed with numerous signatures endorsing the letter.
To have both Bill Hybels and Rick Warren's names attached to this letter creates serious concern for me. These two men are very influential in the Christian church and to endorse a letter filled with syncretistic language and a denial of the Trinity is wrong.
I may have misread the letter. Maybe I am making a mountain out of a molehill. Maybe the letter is a legitimate attempt to open up dialogue between muslims and Christians. But then again, shouldn't we write about Christ and Him crucified? Shouldn't we tell others the reason for the hope that we have (1 Peter 3: 15-16)?
I don't know.
Any opinions?
Posted by: Robert W. | January 03, 2008 at 10:03 PM
The Pharisees strike again!
The accuser appears to be disappointed that Rick didn’t use the big words like those academics with PhD’s in theology and don’t have a lick of common sense.
Rick’s ministry is to the UNCHURCHED! He is not trying to impress some highbrow theologian. He is trying to reach the lost with analogies they understand.
I’m not a golfer but I liked the Mulligan analogy. Rick has a beautiful way of presenting the word of go God in a simple way that anyone can relate to especially someone with no Biblical knowledge and that’s what the great commission is all about, reaching the lost.
I don’t read many books but a few years ago I noticed people in my church that I respected commenting on how Rick’s book, The Purpose Driven Live”, and talking about how it had changed their life. This book is written so simply that anyone can understand it but it is changing people like elders, ministers, and other long set in their ways and even some academics.
I was 68 at the time but their example made me want to read the book. I had taken some Bible courses in college and thought I was a good Christian but Rick changed my life too. I suddenly realized I was just a pew warmer and it was time for me to get with the program.
I told an old friend of mine that is a department head at a university about my awakening and suggested he might want to check it out. He said he has already read the book and has committed himself to read it annually. WOW!!!
Maybe the accuser in one of these people with a King James mindset, mentality and can’t shift gears to the NIV.
Some people live and learn while others just live.
William Thompson
Posted by: William Thompson | January 04, 2008 at 07:56 AM
William Thompson:"The Pharisees strike again!...Some people live and learn while others just live."
How about "Live and let live", without name-calling? For all your "education" and experience you mention, you still have to accuse people over their choice of Bible version?
"Rick has a beautiful way of presenting the word of God in a simple way that anyone can relate to especially someone with no Biblical knowledge and that’s what the great commission is all about, reaching the lost." Those of us who know the Scriptures are not relating very well to Rick's way of relating Scripture.
And the Great commission is to reach the lost for Jesus Christ, "making disciples and baptizing in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost." It is not to make disciples of Rick Warren's "Purpose Driven" program.
Posted by: Kathy | January 04, 2008 at 10:39 AM
Unfortunately those who find themselves reading the book, "The purpose driven life" will all, along with the rest of us, find ourselves judged out of the book of GOD called the bible. Not one book written so eloquently by men can stand the test of time, prophecy and doctrinal soundness of the bible. GOD will jduge all men from every nation by HIS book, not any man's book.
Posted by: Carl Walker | January 04, 2008 at 10:46 AM
It's much harder to build something than it is to tear something down. Instead of spending your efforts attacking Rick Warren, why don't you spend that time identifying Christian leaders to build up?
Posted by: Ben MacGowen | January 04, 2008 at 10:53 AM
Rick Warren's ministry is to the "unchurched"??? So, Jesus was kidding when he told Peter to "feed my sheep"??? No, I don't think so.
Rick Warren's ministry (I hate to see that word associated with that name) is no different than mine...to give the LOST the message of Repentance and Faith. He doesn't do that. What he does do is help cults and world religions build bigger "houses of worship". If you don't believe me, do a google on "Warren Synagogue 3000".
Our Mission to the lost is the same as the one Jesus demonstrated. His ministry started with the word "Repent".
But there other messes these days. One wonders how Richard and Co. defend this...
Posted by: Tim Brown | January 04, 2008 at 10:58 AM
William:
Please define the "unchurched" Is it one who does not belong to a particular church but is a Christian? "Unchurched" is not a biblical concept but a marketing concept. "Lost" or "non-believer" are terms used to define those who are not Christian. To those people, Law and Gospel are to be preached to them. What does one preach to the "unchurched"?
Posted by: Steve Newell | January 04, 2008 at 11:32 AM
Jesus taught using parables which are stories that tell about an aspect of the Kingdom of God in terms understood by the common folk of His day. They had hidden meaning that can only be understood by the revelation of the Father. - "... but to others I speak in parables, so that 'though seeing, they may not see: though hearing they may not understand.'" (Luke 8v10).
I am not defending Rick Warren here as I have not read much of his materials. I do however feel that as Jesus spoke using SIMPLE illustrations of things around him to largely UNEDUCATED folks we need to be very careful that our discussions remain Christ-centered and not based on "theological correctness". In Jesus' day the Pharisees (students of the law of God) were accepted, by the Jewish leadership, as "theologically correct" but Jesus had some very harsh words for them.
Let me use this verse quoted by Chuck to illustrate my point - 2 TIMOTHY 3:14-16 "But continue in the things which you have learned and have been assured of, knowing of whom you have learned them; and that from a child you have known the HOLY SCRIPTURES, which are able to make you wise unto salvation through faith in CHRIST JESUS. All scripture is give by inspiration of GOD, and is profitable for doctrine,for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of GOD may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works."
Think about what you were taught by the "theologically correct"?
From whom did Timothy learn? - Paul, Jesus, Holy Spirit, Other.
What are the scriptures referred to here? - Old Testament, New Testament, Gospels, Paul's letters, the whole Bible, Other.
What does it mean to be perfect? - do no wrong, be forgiven, have a clean slate, know God's will in a matter, able to do good works.
Jesus, in John 14v26, said "But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you." According to this verse we should be teaching people to rely on the Holy Spirit not some theological understanding. Why would God today not then use stories including iPods, Computers, and other non-biblical words? If we rely on the Holy Spirit then Father is free to use any illustration that has meaning for us personally. This I believe is what Jesus taught as he knew that most of us are ordinary folks saved by grace.
Posted by: Ian | January 04, 2008 at 04:39 PM
Ian said:
"I am not defending Rick Warren here as I have not read much of his materials. I do however feel that as Jesus spoke using SIMPLE illustrations of things around him to largely UNEDUCATED folks we need to be very careful that our discussions remain Christ-centered and not based on "theological correctness". In Jesus' day the Pharisees (students of the law of God) were accepted, by the Jewish leadership, as "theologically correct" but Jesus had some very harsh words for them."
A few points:
You can't separate God from His Word. Therefore, is there "Christ Centeredness" with theological error and/or pragmatic error? Unless I misunderstand you, I would have to disagree with your point.
Secondly, Jesus didn't condemn the Pharisees for their theology, but for how they elevated their own traditions as if they were the very commands of God. No, he didn't chide them for theological precision.
I get so tired of how the "Pharisee" charge gets abused...
Posted by: Tim Brown | January 04, 2008 at 05:19 PM
I'd like to add that making up one's mind about Warren's Orthodoxy or lack thereof is not difficult. You don't have to study him that hard. Just listen to how he speaks in public to the lost. Does he mention repentance? No. Yet, that is an integral part of saving faith. It is the flip side of faith, without which salvation doesn't happen.
He has had so many opportunities to deliver the gospel on a massive scale. His WalMart message for example. Did he do it? No!
Rick Warren is interested in building all "houses of worship". He has demonstrated this in many venues, including Synagogue 3000, the videos of which I have.
In His "PDL" book, you can find New Age philosophies and Panentheism.
It amazes me when I wonder how much it will take to wake people up to how far off track Warren is. When you blow off theology, that is what you get!
Posted by: Tim Brown | January 04, 2008 at 05:29 PM
Tim,
Note that I said our discussions need to be Christ-centered. What I mean is that they need to be done in love (in the spirit of Christ)as opposed to trying to win an argument or with no empathy for the other person.
Secondly, according to John 1 God's Word is Jesus not the scriptures. Many theologians have elevated scripture on this understanding, that it is the Word of God, to be equal with God.
Thirdly, let me be clear that the Pharisees interpretation of the scriptures was sometimes incorrect which is also the case with "theological correctness" - e.g. Matthew 23v23 the Pharisees made tithing more important that justice, mercy and faithfulness. He did chide them for theological precision.
Finally, I am in total agreement that anyone who preaches a "different gospel" in public should be exposed but let our words be few and to the point so that there will be no misunderstanding. Let us not nitpick (mulligans) like the Pharisees but consider the man's total contribution (repentance & grace etc.) as you have in your second comment. This together with a few other comments above gives me a good understanding of Warren's theology.
However, I cannot agree with your statement "When you blow off theology, that is what you get!". It is when you do not have a relationship with the Father, through the reconciling work of Jesus on the cross, that you get this (error and misunderstanding). I firmly believe that ".. the Spirit of Truth .. will guide you into all truth." John 16v13
Posted by: Ian | January 04, 2008 at 06:27 PM
I hardly ever go to blogs, simply because I don't have the time. I am a pastor of a relatively new church, one that tries to be a Bible-Driven church, plus I do retailing/merchandising work during the week. I went to seminary with Rick Warren; we graduated the same time. I am sure I had elective missions classes with him. (As a side note, I was a dorm mate of Mike Huckabee in college in Arkansas. In fact, he was my pastor. I mention that because someone posted the question or comment about Mike being a Rick Warren clone. Anyway, I can save Huckabee for another day, another blog.) When I left for my first pastorate, a new church start in Michigan, it is when Rick and his wife went to California. In Ohio, I came across a paper Rick wrote called C.A.M.E.O., Contemporary Approaches to Minisry, Evangelism and Organization. This was like the foundational philosophical approach to Rick's ministry which has taken shape in his Purpose-Driven materials. I was fully immersed in the church growth movement. I went to all the conferences, and I read all the books. I heard Hybels, Warren, Maxwell and others in person. I ate it all up. . .until in 1992, after 11 years in the ministry, I began to read the Bible exhaustively. It probably is a good idea for pastors to read the Word from time to time! I came to see when I laid my CGM notes side by side with the Bible, that there was very little Scripture used and what was used was greatly twisted out of its context. God opened my eyes to see God's sovereign grace in Scripture. I am making a very long story short, which is hard for a preacher to do. Everything fell into place. Truth decay causes church cavities. You sow poor theology and you reap bad methodology. Rick (and Richard Abanes) is the prime example of a man who really thinks he is doing the right thing, but is clueless about what good theology consists of, and how vitally important it is to everything we do as handlers of God's Word. Charles Spurgeon faced a downgrade in his day, and today we face another. Warren, Osteen, and Hybels are loved by this world. That is why they get all the media attention. It seems I recall Someone in the Bible saying something to the effect that "woe to you when the world speaks well of you. . ."
Posted by: Chris Humphreys | January 04, 2008 at 06:28 PM
Ian:
So you can separate what God says from His Person? That one is new to me.
I think if you reread the scripture about tithing and their view of it, He did say that they were "Right in doing so"..but he said he left out the other. That is not deemphasizing scripture, but telling them their practice was lacking, and should have left them asking for forgiveness and the gift of repentance.
So, does the Spirit of Truth lead us to Truth apart from Scripture??? Just curious how that works out....
Tim
Posted by: Tim Brown | January 04, 2008 at 07:13 PM
One last idea. When Paul or the other apostles confronted error, even to the point of anatematizing others, such as in Galatians, was that "unChristlike". Seems to me, the church is way out of balance. When Christ drove the money lenders out of the temple, was HE unChristlike? When Paul confronted Peter to his face, was he also unChristlike?
We live in a culture that embraces "Tolerance". We want to be stroked and others expect it of us. When someone needs help, I help them. When someone needs food, I give it to them if I have it to spare. But there is also a time to stand up and draw some good, broad, dark lines...and this is one of them.
Posted by: TIm Brown | January 04, 2008 at 07:24 PM
Sorry we are now off the original point. However Tim I think you missed my point. I am not talking about tolerance but presenting a viewpoint purely to try to win an argument or showing no empathy for the other person. The examples you quote except for the temple incident are correction given face to face or to people they knew which again makes a huge difference.
The other point is that the scriptures are inspired by God not necessarily, as Paul says in a number of places, the exact spoken words of God. If the scriptures are the exact spoken word of God we would not have needed 4 gospels which in many places repeats the same incident emphasizing different perspectives.
Tim asks "So, does the Spirit of Truth lead us to Truth apart from Scripture???" If you are asking does the Spirit give guidance that contradicts the scripture my answer would be that He does not. However He does sometimes give an answer that contradicts my interpretation of the scripture.
Posted by: Ian | January 04, 2008 at 08:25 PM
Steve:
You said:
"Please define the "unchurched" Is it one who does not belong to a particular church but is a Christian? "Unchurched" is not a biblical concept but a marketing concept. "Lost" or "non-believer" are terms used to define those who are not Christian. To those people, Law and Gospel are to be preached to them. What does one preach to the "unchurched"?"
Just wanted to say "thank you" for asking those questions. I'm so tired of hearing the terminology. You're right. It's about marketing...
Posted by: Tim Brown | January 04, 2008 at 08:34 PM
The man definitely is not a preacher/teacher. I think he was trying to make his point by using an example as Jesus done so many times for his disciples, but Rick Warren did it very poorly! He needed to continue to say that we need to confess our sins as many times as we need to each day and receive many, many second chances each day. ( If this was his way of teaching) Adam and Eve blew the first chance and Jesus came for us to be redeemed forever if, we'd accept Him as our Savior. But only one second chance and no others as in a Mulligan is ALL WRONG!!! I am very disappointed in his sermon. This confuses people all over that never did understand the Gospel. They will figure why worry about just a SECOND chance is that is all you get. It is obvious you'll mess up more than one more time, and then ..."No more chances?" Never in a million years Rick!
Posted by: Lu | January 04, 2008 at 10:22 PM
Lu:
Of course the big fallacy is that God doesn't do "Mulligans". As I think someone else said, a mulligan is where you suspend the rules. God never did that, He never does that.
He can give us grace because He sent His Son to satisfy the rules, specifically the justice of God.
This, as you know, is not a nitpick. It's an outright misrepresentation of the Gospel. Indeed, what Warren preaches is "another Gospel" (Galatians 1).
Posted by: Tim Brown | January 05, 2008 at 07:11 AM
This is a reinvention of church as we know it. Some preachers would call it 'just methods' to win the lost. Someone is always trying to keep up with the Joneses, when all we have to do is simply love our neighbor as ourselves. The word says everything else will fall in to place if we do this. That's all God asks of us, is to love. And in that love, do what is best for others. If you're a parent, a spouse, or just a good friend, you know what I mean. We have become a monastic society, letting the world tell us what is acceptable, and not sharing the gospel. Warren and people like him are trying to take the church back where it should be, in their thinking. They seem to be getting a little more radical than they should be. God only wants our hearts, then our obedience will be his as well. To me, it seems as if they are rebelling against the world. That's where I came from, in the 60,s/70's. Not good! We were radically hospitable. We grouped together. We were self feeders. Actually, fed off each other. There was no wisdom, no love, just freedom to do what we wanted. God saved me from that, and sure doesn't want it to happen in the church, so we must fight this movement of rebellion. I have read and heard enough to know, it's not of God. There is no evidence of the Holy Spirit in their speech, or their lives. This is not to say 'turn away from them', but on the contrary, keep telling, keep loving, but beware of false teachers who bring false heresy into the churches. Be discerning, not emotional!!
Posted by: Brenda | January 05, 2008 at 09:36 AM
Most of the articles written for this website (including this latest article about Rick Warren's Xmas message) are not very thoughtful and are written in anger and frustration over differences in theology and biblical interpretation. Of course, everyone is "wrong" or teaching a false gospel, if the theology isn't consist with the majority of the people who frequent this site. I believe Richard, who seems to be the target of much of this anger and frustration, is very thoughtful and has made many interesting and valid points. It is to bad it was wasted on a bunch of narrow minded individuals whose theology is very reflective of contemporary, American theology-- about 3,000 miles long and an inch deep.
Posted by: Vince | January 05, 2008 at 01:41 PM
I am troubled that any preacher/teacher would use The Message from which to teach. I think that shows a carelessness toward God's word, although perhaps the person doesn't realize he is being careless. Perhaps this thought has a place in this discussion.
Posted by: Nannybell | January 05, 2008 at 02:35 PM
Vince:"It is to bad it was wasted on a bunch of narrow minded individuals whose theology is very reflective of contemporary, American theology-- about 3,000 miles long and an inch deep."
I'd say your opinion of "American Theology" is pretty narrow minded.
How about addressing the issues raised ...or can you not rise above your apparent grudge against "this website"?
Posted by: Kathy | January 05, 2008 at 02:40 PM
I teach in an SBC church and I can tell you without equivication that the SBC does not teach that Jesus came to earth to give people a mulligan, second chance or do over. Every single one of those words and terms is biblically and doctrinally wrong. You can see our doctrinal statement at the link below.
http://www.sbc.net/bfm/bfm2000.asp
and for those of you trying to dismiss this article because it was written by a theologian, all I can say is shame on you! The church needs theologians and needs to listen to theologians. These are people who've dedicated their lives to the study of God's word. They've forgotten more theology than most people ever learn. When you are sick you go to a doctor. When the church is sick, and boy is it ever, then we need to stop and listen to the theologians.
I'd like to also point out that the theologian who runs this website and wrote this article gave us a doctrinally correct and easily understandable golf metahpor that correctly highlights what Christ did for us on the cross. His analogy stands heads and shoulders above Rick Warren's mulligan metaphor and I personally thank our Lord for Chris' theological study and prophetic voice.
Those who accuse him of being nit picky are the ones who are actually guilty of that charge.
Posted by: Corey | January 05, 2008 at 04:02 PM
Not to hurt anybody's feelings at Saddleback..But as referenced from an above blogger...Rick's purpose is to preach to the "unchurched" pretty much sums up what his and other ministries like his aredirected toward. Therefore,
to become "unchurched" one must be churched. Simple logic to me. However, Christ teaches us to preach and spend time with the unconverted.
To be come unconverted one must be converted. To become converted doesn't take a book other than the bible..and no church at all. However, once converted, one would want to seek out a church to glorify and humble himself before our Creator..which I thought was the only purpose of the converted living not in this world. PLEASE, those who think we are disrespecting Rick Warren and his followers just don't get it. Show me one place in the Bible where Jesus was upset primarily due to church attendance? Am I missing something?
I thank God for giving me insights and understanding about what REALLY is going on with the gospel. I have, for the past 20 years, have just told my wife that Churches are becoming like clubs and as evidenced below ...not really good clubs.
BELIEVE THIS: The first place people who are in need of assistance nowadays go to clubs like the Lion's club and Civitans ..before asking Churches..
Posted by: Luke | January 05, 2008 at 04:08 PM
Lets see what does the bible say about the falling away? As in the days of Noah...Doesn't Jesus even pray to the Father that the elect not be deceived? Lets quit looking at others like Warren, and get to work spreading the gospel. We are not to concern ourselves with people who in their vain imagination don't receive us. Let just keep following Jesus where He wants to lead each of us. We cannot do what Jesus wants us to do, if we keep looing at Warren and worrying about what he is doing.
Be Blessed
Walt
Posted by: Walt Wawra | January 05, 2008 at 06:44 PM
The above "Ken Silva" "Surprising Ministries" comment is FAKE!
Whoever adopted another person's name,and set up a blog where Mr. Silva's Apprising Ministries works are mocked , is no good model of Christian behavior.
Such activities are despicable!
Posted by: Kathy | January 05, 2008 at 07:23 PM
I think that the ones that defend Rick Warren don't understand Law and Gospel and that includes Rick Warren. Rick Warren and others either want to preach all gospel or gospel and then the law. Our pastor on Christmas Eve preached why Jesus born in Bethlehem, he was born to be crucified for our sins, not to give mulligans. Most people don't want to hear that they are sinners.
Posted by: Henry | January 05, 2008 at 08:04 PM
Vince, The people whom you attack for being "narrow minded" are in fact on the "narrow path to salvation." We cannot widen it my friend. This is God's plan NOT ours. Read it in the Scriptures yourself. "Broad is the path to destruction." I'm fine with being narrow minded, when I take my last breath here on earth I will not be disappointed.
Posted by: George | January 05, 2008 at 10:31 PM
I've been away too long. So many comments since my last visit! I would like to invite those involved in this debate to read my post Countering Stealth-like Apostasy.
Those who object to the questioning of Rick Warren's heresy need to read John MacArthur's "The Truth War." My post shares a portion of this excellent book. I would encourage every Christian to buy and read MacArthur's book; especially those involved in defending the true gospel and who follow Jude's epistle which says to "earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints."
Posted by: Christinewjc | January 05, 2008 at 11:23 PM
To Everyone who sees no problem with RW's Mulligan analogy:
Can you, in clear simple English, explain to me how this represents the Gospel of repentance/faith?
Explain it to me like I'm a 10 year old, please.
Do not comment on my post, do not take me to task for the tone of my post...just explain it please...I'm very curious. If you do this, then this thread is automatically finished is it not? That would be the nail-in-the-coffin of all of the naysayers would it not?
To RA: I'm very interested to see you exegete the scripture passages from PDL day 1 as has been suggested. I'm not an author, I'm just a layperson so to see someone who is very good at it would be a treat.
What do you say? If RW preaches a biblical gospel, and if PDL is true to the word, this should be a cake-walk for someone as well versed in Biblical Hermeneutics as you are.
Well?
Posted by: Robert | January 06, 2008 at 06:59 AM
William:
This quote from you scares me
"I don’t read many books but a few years ago I noticed people in my church that I respected commenting on how Rick’s book, The Purpose Driven Live”, and talking about how it had changed their life. This book is written so simply that anyone can understand it but it is changing people like elders, ministers, and other long set in their ways and even some academics."
Pardon me if I assume something that you do not mean but, shouldn't it be that "The Bible changed their life" and not "The Purpose Driven Life....changed their life." And in my honest opinion (IMHO), the bible is simple (in terms of salvation. Not every part of the bible is easy to understand) but only if we give ourselves the chance to read it and allow the Holy Spirit, if we have received the spirit through baptism, to do it's part.
If someone, who is a Christian, set out to write about Christianity, shouldn't that person main goal is to (in no particular order):
1.) Inform people about God and the sacrifice of His Son
2.) Inform people about Christianity
3.) Inform people of a need to believe, have faith, confess, repentance and be baptized for remission of sin (Acts 2:Whole chapter)
4.) Add others here :)
I am not saying that RW's book is not doing that, or that the by-product, the effect the book has is his fault, but when I hear/read that churches are asking their members to read this book, or that this book is being shipped to other countries instead of the bible-which leads people to Christ, something seem very wrong to me.
My definition of a successful Christian book is that it informs the public, does the will of God and leads a person to READ the bible, and if that person reads with an open heart and open mind, the WORD OF GOD, will lead that person to what God expects that person to do and THE WORD OF GOD will change their lives.
I don't think we should give men any credit for what Christ did on the cross. He died for us and it is Him who changed our lives, if we accept His grace/salvation.
Posted by: Jude | January 08, 2008 at 05:38 PM
As I have been reading people's comments, it seems that there are a lot of us who has a problem with the semantics of "do over". My main concern about "do over" is that I don't quite understand what it is that I have to do over in this case. What is it that God is forgiving me for and why is He giving me a second chance? If someone is not presented with the full gospel of cross, it can seem that "do over" mean I have a second chance to make things right---but what exactly are you making right? I cannot say for sure that RW did not preach the full gospel because I am only watching an ~4 minute clip, but I do understand those who has a problem with "do over".
My understanding of scripture is that when Christ died on the cross to bear all our sins [[we have trespassed against God, going against His will, and because there is no way for we ourselves to redeem ourselves, we rightly deserve hell but He sent His Son to be a perfect sacrifice allowing us to be in a relationship with God, being justified, through Christ's sacrifice we are made new Romans 3:24, 2 Corinthians 5:15-21]]. That means, when we choose to accept salvation and does what God has asked us to do, we can then be in a right relationship with God. And in that relationship, when we continue to do God's will, we are then assured salvation and are inheritance of His heavenly kingdom.
Posted by: Jude | January 08, 2008 at 08:53 PM
Very interesting blog post and discussion, Chris. (Just found it; I've been away from the 'Net for a while...)
I think your analogy is much more to-the-point than Mr. Warren's. A Mulligan doesn't erase any of the mistakes you make afterwards, nor does it "correct" your scorecard. It's just for the one foul-up.
Salvation, on the other hand, not only clears all of our "bad shots" beforehand, but excuses all the ones to follow.
And as to Rick Warren "not being perfect," and "making mistakes like the rest of us"--I'd excuse that if I saw him humbly retract one of his major errors.
He's been a pastor as long as I've been alive. (He began running the surveys for Saddleback around my birth date, actually.) That's a long time that should have been spent in study. If he's still making these egregious errors and not accepting legitimate correction, then either (a) he is not capable of understanding, or (b) he's deliberately misrepresenting God's Word.
So yet again, I issue the challenge to his defenders: Is Mr. Warren a moron or a liar? And in either case, is that a good sort of man to have as a pastor?
Posted by: Mrs. Pilgrim | January 09, 2008 at 12:52 PM
Last week on Issues, Etc., Todd Wilken performed a sermon review of Warren's sermon. Listen to Todd's comments about this sermon.
The sermon is in hours 1 and 2 on Jan 2.
http://www.kfuoam.org/ie_main.htm
Posted by: Steve Newell | January 09, 2008 at 01:32 PM
Several comments back, Bill said it was disturbing that people were more interested in defending men rather than defending God. Paul shot back how he loved that comment, and that God doesn't need us to defend Him. Since Bill was obviously talking about defending one's honor, I think Paul should read Numbers 25:11 thru 13 very carefully. Phineas turned God's wrath away from Israel because he was zealous for God's sake. God gave him and his seed after him, His covenant of peace and everlasting priesthood. I'd say from this verse and other examples it is our DUTY to defend God's glory and His gospel and His gift of salvation that we receive through His son Jesus. I agree with the "narrow minded" posters that RW's interpetation of gospel is false, thereby making his doctrines false. As far as defending God, He doesn't need it or need any of us worthless sinners. But, out of our love for Him how couldn't we want to defend our God's glory in our hearts and to our brothers and sisters? It seemed to me as if Paul mocked Bill, which I think is a sad thing for people to do to each other anytime. And it's worse to see in this type of forum.
Posted by: lc | January 09, 2008 at 11:16 PM