Thank You to Rick Warren and Saddleback

Yesterday I had the opportunity to meet with Rick Warren. This meeting was made possible by the generosity of Rick Warren and Saddleback Church. I want to personally thank Rick Warren for the invitation and his generosity with his time and resources. He was truly a gracious host.

Many of the readers of this blog would like details regarding the meeting. Here is what I would like to say on the matter...the meeting with Rick Warren lasted for a little over an hour and was a face to face with myself and Bob DeWaay of Critical Issues Commentary. The tone of the meeting was wonderful. Warren was genuinely interested in getting to know us and he was receptive in hearing both Bob's and I's concerns and critiques of his doctrine and practices. Never once did the conversation turn hostile or angry and Warren was more than willing to answer and address our toughest questions and most serious concerns. Both Bob and myself focused our comments on the Gospel and were encouraged by Warren's receptiveness to both listen to and interact with our concerns.

Neither Bob nor myself were required to sign a non-disclosure and we are being provided with a recording of the conversation. However, I have NO intention of making that recording available to the public because I do not believe that to be appropriate nor would it be in keeping with the spirit of the meeting or the love of Christ.

Over the next week or so, I will be writing a Biblical critique of some of the content of the Purpose-Driven conference. The purpose of this critique is to continue a Biblically grounded dialogue so that we all may wrestle with and engage the Word of God in order that errors within the Body of Christ may be corrected and the good news that Jesus Christ was crucified for our sins may be proclaimed so that we all may be called to a life of repentance AND the forgiveness of sins (Luke 24:44-47).

Grace and Peace to you all in Jesus Christ,

Chris Rosebrough

Comments

[Susan R]

Then I'll answer it.
No.
Gracious no.
Way to change the subject.

[catransplant48]

Chris, I think you must have read my posts from last night (which were pulled this morning). That's exactly the point I was trying to get across.

I am glad you attended the conference and I am very glad you had the chance to meet Pastor Rick, who I'm sure you discovered is not the ego-driven Antichrist incarnate so many people (fellow Christians!) have made him out to be. I'm very glad you got to meet with him.

God Bless.

[jason]

Chris:
Verse 17 is very very very interesting because if I remember correctly Jesus ate with tax collectors, prostitutes and sinners (even as wicked as me) and Jesus was loving and compassionate and even healed gentiles.
---
Maybe this isn't the right place for it, but I'm curious about your hermeneutic here, Chris. To me, the context of v.17 draws a contrast between "your brother" and "Gentiles and tax collectors," i.e. non-brothers. There is no shunning of the unrepentant brother there, just a recategorizing of them from being part of the family to being one who has yet to receive the Gospel. As you said, Jesus ate, visited, and healed such people in His ministry.

I said I was curious, because I'm not sure from your comments if you are drawing as firm a line in v.17 as I believe can be seen there.

If this is off-topic, my apologies. Please ignore or comment elsewhere.

[Akira Kurosawa]

To RA: I am very glad I decided to come back to ExtremeTheology, because it gave me a chance to find your site and bookmark it. Richard, you arguments are well reasoned, however, the people that you are writing to have stopped listening. Give it up, their minds are made up, you are just wasting your time.

The Lutheran Church is in bad shape and alot of people are trying to convince the LCMS to be more missional in its focus in the US. Many Lutherans have embraced this idea, however, a very vocal, mean-spirited group have chosen to do everything to oppose this missional focus. They hide behind dogma and claim to be opposing heresy, but really they just want to keep the LCMS focused on... well, the LCMS.

Now before anyone gets upset, I'm not saying anyone writing here fits into the category just described. I will leave those of you reading this to decide if the shoe fits...

Finally, Chris, whatever, your reasons for not sharing the tape or sharing your thoughts immediately, I am glad to hear that you are prayerfully considering what was said before you write and what was said at the meeting may not be anyone's business but the parties' present at the meeting.

Blessings sir. My prayers are with you as you study, think, and follow the Holy Spirit as he guides you.

[Susan R]

Kurosawa'a second paragraph is an accusation for which he should consider apologizing.
It might surprise him to find upon whose foot that 'vocal, mean-spirited' shoe fits.
Is childish accusation the best you've got?

[paula]

kurosawa, missional is the new word they made up to cover up the fact that what it really means is the same old false "social gospel" that old liberalism taught.

I guess that means most of us (with the exception of the Warren defenders) fall into the camp you describe as 'selfish.' I guess yeah, making sure the Gospel is not altered in the name of 'mission' or any other reason would be considered selfish to those who want to change the church's mission from what Jesus told us it should be.

There is no other message that saves, so yes, we will stand against those who wish to make it more about social issues and works than sin and salvation by grace alone through faith alone, for God's glory alone.

I seem to recall Paul was rather selfish about that too in Galatians and ... well most of the New Testament.

[Paula]

Chris, I'm sitting here after picking my jaw up off the floor now wondering how Matthew 18 suddenly DOES apply to the Rick Warren issue.

Richard, you asked a question. Don't play stupid. You asked a rhetorical question meant to imply that people here were being too narrow in defining who the church is, and you were suggesting in that question that we might think that only Lutherans were saved. If you're worried about inflammatory speech, that would be one kind of comment you might avoid, but I harbor no illusions about just who is allowed to be inflammatory and who isn't, in your view.

[Paula]

this doesn't matter a hill of beans to anyone but for the record, I feel as f I am about to be betrayed yet again by a Christian voice I trusted. I don't matter, again, to anyone, but I am betting that if I am this grieved by the direction Chris seems to be taking this, that there are others who have felt the pain of being dragged behind the purpose driven horse, and they will be equally hurt and grieved.

I just want you to know Chris that so far the hints you have given have pushed me in a direction of great pain and sorrow. I literally will at some point shed tears over this. I am not so much angry as hurt and disappointed. This repeated ... almost... betrayal... is what disillusions us from wanting to be part of the fellowship or ever trust a pastor again.

[Richard Abanes]

Paula: Richard, you asked a question. Don't play stupid.

RA: Now, I'm playing stupid. I odn't ask questions for clarification and I am accused of being arrogant, ignoring issues, and side-stepping. I do ask questions, and I am accused of playing games and acting stupid. And you can't see how this is a lose-lose no matter what I say I do? Unreal.

____________
Paula: You asked a rhetorical question meant to imply that people here were being too narrow in defining who the church is, and you were suggesting in that question that we might think that only Lutherans were saved.

RA: I was asking a question for clarification the position being stated. It wasn't rhetorical. Now you are left in the position of either calling me a liar or apologzing. Why do I have a feeling that i will know which way you go. But I am always an optimist. So, surprise me.

___________
Paula: If you're worried about inflammatory speech, that would be one kind of comment you might avoid, but I harbor no illusions about just who is allowed to be inflammatory and who isn't, in your view.

RA: Pot - kettle - black.

[Richard Abanes]

Paula: this doesn't matter a hill of beans to anyone but for the record, I feel as f I am about to be betrayed yet again by a Christian voice I trusted.

RA: How about trusting the voice of Christ alone and concentrating more on your walk rather than the walk of others. Maybe that's the problem.

[steve]

The tone of these comments make me embarrased to be called a Christian.*
I hope you will all consider the following verse before your next worship service:

Matthew 5:23
"Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift."

How many of your comments would you unashamedly present to Jesus? I challenge you readers to make some sincere apologies to each other and seek/give forgiveness. Discuss, yes. Attack maliciously, never.

(*I am NOT embarrased to be a Christian in the light of Jesus, but by the way "Christians" act towards each other)

[stryker]

I have to say that this is one ugly conversation. As an outsider(well kind of--I am a convert to Lutheranism) I am embarassed that alot of these comments are hanging out there for the world to see.

Chris-- good on you for going, and if your sense of honor dictates that you never publish the tapes, that is an upright decision on your part, stick with it. Realize that there is a strain of Confessionalism that is downright mean, and some of these folks will "eat their own young" I say this as a fellow Confessional Lutheran. Some will see your efforts at reasoned, respectful, and polite dialogue as caving in or capitulating to false doctrine. Mr Abanes is right, they will turn on you. Ignore them.

Mr. Abanes, while I am not a fan of your bosses' work or theology, you have shown remarkable restraint. I have seen your commentary elsewhere in the blogosphere, and Mr. Warren has hired an able apologist in you. Still, the idea that PD and Reformation Theology are saying the same thing is a hard sell and you probably won't find many sympathetic ears in this corner of the blogosphere. My advice to you is learn how to discern a fruitless conversation, then extricate yourself from it.

Paula, Susan, Susan R, Tim, et.al. You guys are rude and in some cases shrill. Put yourselves in check. You are an embarassment, airing your vitriol in public. This is the kind of anger that chews up pastors and tears up churches. The anger of man rarely accomplishes the righteousness of God. Let cooler heads prevail, and at least allow the participants(Chris, Warren, Abanes,and that other pastor) to conduct themselves in an honorable fashion, and treat each other with respect, without all this name calling and accusation piled on top of what already is a difficult task.

[Daniel Chew]

Chris:

may God continue to be with you through this. Continue to seek God instead of listening to others, remembering the tactics of the enemy. Do not be swayed by sincerity nor by criticism.

[Susan]

Stryker said: "Paula, Susan, Susan R, Tim, et.al. You guys are rude and in some cases shrill. Put yourselves in check. You are an embarassment, airing your vitriol in public."

Stryker, I do not see where that accusation fits with any of my comments. I truly would appreciate it if you would show me specifically from my comments where that accusation applies. Please distinguish between Susan and Susan R. - we have been confused with one another several times.

Thank-you,
Susan

[Tommy Dale]

I don't know what is being hidden in the recordings, but the only reason to hide them is to protect someone or cover up something. It smacks of secrecy. It appears to be an evil motive, and we are told to avoid "the very appearance of evil". This secrecy is no different than the secrecy used by Rick Warren in his methodology while driving good church members away.

[Richard Abanes]

STRYKER: Mr. Abanes, while I am not a fan of your bosses' work or theology, you have shown remarkable restraint. I have seen your commentary elsewhere in the blogosphere, and Mr. Warren has hired an able apologist in you.

RA: (AWESOME name btw). Rick Warren has NEVER -- again, I say, NEVER - hired me to do, say, or write ANYTHING on his behalf. NEVER. That's just another rumor that the likes of Tim Wirth keep circulating. I suppose it might be in order to just have something else to keep "writing" about (I can't comprehend why he won't accept what I have repeatedly told him and others about this issue).

From my website: "ATTENTION: I am not now, nor have I ever been, a spokesperson (official or unofficial) for Rick Warren, Saddleback Church, or any affiliates of Saddleback Church, including Purpose Driven Ministries and pastors.com. Moreover, I have never been contracted or requested by Rick Warren, Saddleback, or any of its affiliates to publicly defend or discuss criticisms of Warren, his books, or his ministry. The comments contained in these articles are my own personal opinions expressed in response to Warren's critics, and are based on my own investigation and research into Warren (as I have detailed in my book Rick Warren and the Purpose that Drives Him)."

So, that's just fyi, this is just me - nothing relating to any position I hope inside or outside Saddleback.

__________
TOMMY DALE: ... the only reason to hide them is to protect someone or cover up something. It smacks of secrecy. It appears to be an evil motive, and we are told to avoid "the very appearance of evil".

RA: Here come more conspiracies already starting.

Chris, I warned you. Now, I have no idea what you're going to eventually say. All I ask is that you just do what's right, biblical, and godly. That's all. Make the tapes available; or don't make them available. Doesn't matter to me. Again, you just do what's right, biblical, and godly.

And for the rest of you - and I never thought I'd be saying this - Lay off, Chris. He has barely said one word about the meeting. Yet by simply saying that for his own reasons he wants to keep a private meeting, hmmmmm, PRIVATE, you start constructing all of these bizarre scenarios, conspiracies, and questioning his motives.

And it's not even his faith, his doctrine, his walk with Christ, or any kind of sinful lifestyle you're questioning. It's all based on the mere glimmer of a possibility that he MIGHT, and that's a big MIGHT, that he might dare say something/anything positive about Rick Warren!!!?

Is that apologetics? Is that discernment? Is that love? Is that biblical? (Paula, THESE are rhetorical questions). You won't even let the man have a week to sit and think about these issues, take them to God, pray about them, do some biblical reading, talk to others (friends, counselors, pastors), etc. etc. etc.

By your reaction to a "fellow" discerner, you show your true motives and agenda. It's not defending the faith. It's attacking. And all you have to do is NOT be on the "Let's get Rick Warren" bandwagon to become a hated/dreaded target - and it makes no difference what beliefs are held by the target.

I would venture to say that Chris is still just as much a Lutheran now as he was before he met Warren. And I actually rejoice in that. GOOD! I'm glad Chris is a Lutheran. But that's not good enough for many of you, it seems. For you, he needs to hold his faith AND hate Warren, or risk being labeled a heretic, a compromiser, or a deceiver (or a deceived/mesmerized puppet). And that, if anything, sounds like faith + something.

R. Abanes

[Tim Wirth]

Chris: I meant no disrespect coming over to your blog. And I hope I have not been seen to be rude to you. Richard anywhere he goes stirs up emotions (many times mine). Thats what Abanes is a pro at and any rational person can see this because Richard has done this for many years. At no time Chris did I state I would break fellowship, accuse you of anything. I know all this information needs time to set in to give a well thought out responce.
Your point to keep the meeting secret or private is very troubeling -your words"I have NO intention of making that recording available to the public because I do not believe that to be appropriate nor would it be in keeping with the spirit of the meeting or the love of Christ."
end quote
You as have other many Warren critics myself included have been very public about Rick Warren. Then you have the opportunity to ask Rick Warren as you put it "Warren was more than willing to answer and address our toughest questions and most serious concerns."
Yet you have stated you are unwillig to share this with the public?
Your observations to Warrens unbiblical methods and teachings have been in the public.
So why not make Warrens answers to your tough questions public?
I for one have not threatened to break fellowship or anything like that. You need to do whats biblical here not what we think you should do.
I did call you out on the verses you quoted because I thought it was approriate.
And as for Richard Abanes-its so like you to come in and flame a situation. Notice how Richard spins his web-the use of the word private of course instead of secret.
Chris keep in mind that I believe Abanes intentions here are not only unbiblical but evil.
He has thrown you under the bus time after time. Now because Richard see's a in where he can use the diaprax methods his leader uses's this guy does not have your best interests at heart. Spiritual or otherwise. Richard will just use this to his advantage as he continues to spin information and speak for Saddleback and his leader Rick Warren.
I do understand how other Christians who come here who have not seen Richard Abanes before can be troubled at the conversation. I also find it hard to not get in the flesh when dealing with Richard Abanes. This is Richards greatest spiritual talent and he has been doing it for many years.
I do however apologize if my comments have upset any brother or sister in the Lord.
Chris at best please understand I do truely love you in the Lord as a brother in Christ. Please look through my sometimes ugly flesh to see that.
I do again with all respect think its a mistake to keep anything private or secret concerning your meeting with Rick Warren.
Jeus never did anything in secret.
Since you have been very public about Warren.
Sincerely in Christ.
Tim Wirth

[Chris Rosebrough]

Some Clarification for Everyone,

There is nothing hidden in the recordings. There is no conspiracy. I didn't drink kool-aid. Warren is not a Sith. I am not a victim of the Jedi mind trick, a lobotomy, astral projection or demonic delusions.

Both Bob Dewaay and I decided that it would be inappropriate to post the audio because we believe that the audio would be unfairly used against Rick Warren and could be construed as the both of us trying to elevate our status at Warren's expense. The last thing we want is for people to grab snippets of the audio ripped from context and say things like "Finally some one is sticking it to Warren" when that wasn't the spirit of our conversation. This is a matter of respect and dignity NOT secrecy.

The reason I posted Matthew 18 yesterday was to show that even in the worst case scenario of 'church discipline when a church has to "break fellowship" due to lack of repentance Jesus calls us to treat those whom we are breaking fellowship with as "tax-collectors and sinners".

So I posted this passage because we need to stop and think for a minute and ask ourselves if in this "worst case scenario passage" Jesus is calling us to demonize people or share His love with them?

[Gayle]

Audiotaping the meeting was wise I think to avoid the potential for someone saying that something was said that was not (or vice versa).
Knowing you're being recorded can restrict the freeflow of discussion.

[J. K. Jones]

Chris,

I am glad you had the face-to-face with Warren. I am looking forward to hearing the rest of your commentary.

Warren is not so far from the Kingdom as some people think.

JK

[Richard Abanes]

TIM: Chris keep in mind that I believe Abanes intentions here are not only unbiblical but evil.

RA: Now I am evil. Tim, really, you should just go ahead now and accuse me of being gay and writing bad checks. TBH, I'm almost running out of room for the list of accusations you've made against.

_____-
TIM: Now because Richard see's a in where he can use the diaprax methods his leader uses's this guy does not have your best interests at heart. Spiritual or otherwise.

RA: You sure know a lot. And tell us how you can read minds and hearts. I thought only God could do that. Hmmmmm....

______
TIM: Chris at best please understand I do truely love you in the Lord as a brother in Christ.

RA: Chris, trust me. He'll "love" you as long as you don't cross his views of...whatever. But if you do, then you'll be evil - just like me. That is how Tim Wirth sees issues like discernment and "love."

_______
TIM: I also find it hard to not get in the flesh when dealing with Richard Abanes. This is Richards greatest spiritual talent and he has been doing it for many years.

RA: Many years? I first came to know you in mid-2005 where we interacted for a few brief months. Then, after I said and posted NOTHING on the Internet for years, we started interacting again around the of December 2007. That was a short 5 months ago. MANY YEARS? You have an interesting take on reality. What I have actually been doing for many years is serving God through writing books that defend the faith once for all delivered to the saints.

My track record of biblically-sound, Christ-centered, and God-honoring books speaks for itself. I am not perfect. I've made mistakes. We all do. But generally speaking, as I stand before my Lord and Savior, Jesus of Nazareth, I have NOTHING to be ashamed of. Nor, contrary to your opinion, do I have anything for which I need to "REPENT!"

You, on the other hand, well..... never mind.

RAbanes

R. Abanes

[Brandon Giromini]

Chris,

Did anyone ask Rick Warren for a biblical response to him advising unbelieving Jews at Synagogue 2000 on how to grow their congregations? The videos are available online.

In Christ,

Brandon Giromini

[Chris Rosebrough]

Brandon,

Warren gave an answer for that during the conference. Basically he said that he was 'building bridges' so that he can give them the gospel.

[Richard Abanes]

CHRIS: Warren gave an answer for that during the conference. Basically he said that he was 'building bridges' so that he can give them the gospel.

RA: Just FYI for others, this is what I have been saying all along for many months now regarding such events. And I was only guessing, never having even spoken to Rick about it.

In January, I stated: "As I understand it, although I have NOT spoken to Rick about this, his appearance there [i.e., [before the Jewish community]was to make contacts and gain an open-door (so-to-speak) where a Christian might not otherwise even be able to go. I look at it as an opportunity to get into a community that has notoriously been closed to Christians."

At Phoenix Preacher, on Feb. 12, I posted: "...whatever Warren was doing or saying or attempting at the Jewish gathering, it must fit into the paradigm established by such words/teachings/views, as well as his own ongoing preaching about the Cross, Sin, Hell, Christ, and repentance (see my article “Saddleback: The Cross, Sin, and Hell” at http://abanes.com/cross_sin_hell.html). You can’t go off and just start asserting that: a) he is now a pluralist; b) he thinks Judaism is okay; c) whatever would contradict his ongoing messages about salvation.

And most recently, on May 12 at CRN.info: "Rick does everything for a reason. And if I were to make a guess, I would guess that he is somehow seeing it as a backdoor to Christian evangelism. A seriously subtle BACK DOOR since one of the most hostile communities to Christianity is Judaism. He might feel that if people can at least come from an atheistic worldview into a theistic worldview, then the next step is the Christian worldview. (There are a LOT of Jewish atheists out there who would be far more inclined to going back to synagogue, than going to a Christian church). Warren MIGHT be thinking that if he can get them to a synogogue, then maybe he can eventually get them into a church (or some Christian who they meet can get them into a church). . . . His over-arching reason for just about EVERYTHING is evangelism...."

R. Abanes

[Gayle]

Chris,
Does he build bridges with Mormons and Moslems as well by helping them learn market based principles for growth? I know he has met with Jews Synagogue more than once and have read their expressions of gratitude that he never mentioned Jesus Christ.
Maybe the next time he presents to this group Rick Warren will bring up the Messiah?

I'm not sure how effective this strategy will prove to be, but I'm doubtful. On the other hand the growth strategies could be helpful.

[Richard Abanes]

Chris,

Now, I'll make my own public offer to you. Let us meet face to face for breakfast and talk about these issue even more - come to understand each other and our differences, which I have no doubt will remain. But let's stop the unnecessary strife and division.

I propose we meet for a brotherly, Christ-centered, biblical discussion about whatever you want to discuss so we can resolve these things once and for all and go forward in serving Christ.

I propose that we meet together, along with a neutral third-party whom we both know, honor, respect, and trust - i.e., GP. I think you know the person of whom I speak. I know you trust, admire, and respect GP as a person and fellow believer. And, as you full well know, GP is a committed, conservative Lutheran-lifer!.

Email me. And let's set something up. Oh, BTW, unlike Warren, however, I will NOT be treating!!! ROFL. I don't have the $$, and I don't want to be accused of bribing you. Soooo, you can either take me out, or we'll go Dutch! :-)

R. Abanes

[KW]

Richard Abanes: I'm not trying to be rude, but do you have a day job--I mean, like an 8 to 5 that requires your attention or is looking for blogs that say negative things about RW and then defending him ad nauseam the thing that puts food on the table? There are several blogs that I read on a somewhat regular basis, and you seem to be posting on all of them.

In the interest of full disclosure, our family left a church we had attended for 16 years because of PDL. Best move we ever made.

[Janine]

Chris,
Think seriously about the "building bridges" part of this conversation. When the Apostle Paul met with the Athenians, he used the bridge of the Unknown God to meet them where they were at, but then he immediately told them the Gospel. Missionaries go places, work with people for a long time and share the gospel with them along the way. In my view, Warren's interactions with non-Christians (Or Ravi Zacharias's or whomevers) are more akin to the Paul example than the latter example. It was a moment of time where he had a captive audience. Most of those people he will never see again. Most of them, therefore, will never hear from his lips the gospel message of Jesus Christ (if he knows the true gospel message). So what are we left with? Warren may be building bridges; but, he is building bridges to nowhere.

The time is short. We should use whatever opportunities we have to plant the seeds or to give a wholesale gospel message. We shouldn't squander them on something other than the true gospel or worse yet, make misleading statements (lies) about a person's standing before God in an effort to make them feel good about us and our message.

[Tim Wirth]

TIM: Chris at best please understand I do truely love you in the Lord as a brother in Christ.

RA: Chris, trust me. He'll "love" you as long as you don't cross his views of...whatever. But if you do, then you'll be evil - just like me. That is how Tim Wirth sees issues like discernment and "love

Richard of course you can continue to speak for Rick Warren and tell us what Rick thinks and feels.
But you really cant speak for me and the way I feel about Chris and his ministry which hasnt changed even though I disagree with Chris on not going public about the meeting as well as letting Warren pay his way. But of course time will show what my real feelings about Chris are.
For the record though-
I do however do not think you are gay because you were (or are) a dancer. Ive worked in theater in the orchestra and I know in order to have those kind of skills to be a dancer of the measure you stated you were that it aquires a lot of hard work and practice. Ive worked with both gay and straight people in theater as well in a very long music career. Dont hate either. As for the bad check thing thats just silly but Im sure you were not serious about that.

Chris just in parting because I need to exit this conversation for now I want to state I still believe that you are my brother in the Lord. I do however want to state again that in my opinion I think it was error for you and Bob Dewaay to allow Warren to pay for your way to Saddleback and the conferance. And I do think its a mistake for you not to transcribe the tape and make it public.
I think it would have been a wiser choice to meet Warren in the public arena both of you paying your own way and outside of Warrens own turf.
The way Pastor Dewaay debated Doug Pagitt.
But thats just my opinion.
You and Bob both however are accountable to God for the choices you make, certainly not me.
I hope you will continue to analize the truth in the way you have in the past using scripture as your guide and final word.
Sincerely in Christ
I whole heartily wish you the best.
Your brother in the Lord
Tim Wirth

[Tom]

Chris Rosebrough,
I know I am not alone in saying that Richard Abanes is monopolizing your comment section here and given his track record of abusive and ungodly conduct in the blog world, (see CRN.info's latest post on Ingrid Schlueter for example--make sure to read Richard in the comment section--it is unbelievable his treatment of a Christian woman)I am respectfully requesting that you limit him. He has his own blog and publishing platform but he is turning your comment section into a stinking circus for his own views, responses and counter-responses. I won't keep reading your site if this continues.

[Tom]

Thank you, Richard, for making my point. Are you running this blog? As for leadership, blaming the woman has always been man's problem when it comes to sin. She does it, too. So that makes it OK for Richie. That's your entire apologetic. Wow.

[Tom]

Oh, never mind, Mr. Rosebrough, the abusive and unbelievable comments regarding my wife, Ingrid, were removed by CRN.info. Richard, saved by the delete key. Apparently Richard even went to far for those guys.

[KW]

"... Warren pays me 20 million a year" Man, is he getting ripped off. But, with all the millions he's made off PDL, he won't even miss it.

Are you and Tim Reed related? You sound (angry) a lot alike.

[steve]

I'm sure I'll regret this.

This is a question for Tim Wirth. I found your blog, and read your bio (unless there is another Tim Wirth who is a musician and runs a blog against Rick Warren).

You state, in your bio:

1. "Tim has also been blessed to play with Paul Baloche, Lincoln Brewster, Darlene Zscech and Hillsongs among others." "and friends Alex Acuna, Abe Laboriel SR, Justo Almario"

Each of these artists are regular supporters of Rick Warren and PD, having been regular performers at Saddleback Conferences, and much more. They have also invited many Saddleback people (including Rick) to participate in their events, conferences and projects. Is it not hypocritical to earn a living playing with people who support someone you apparently think is "evil"? (My word choice, not yours)

2. "Tim has played in numerous churchs as well as shows on TBN. "

And this? You criticize Rick Warren, but then appear on perhaps the most theological unsound "Christian" network around? The horrors of what I've heard preached from those airways, and yet, its okay to participate?

This is not meant as an attack - believe it or not, I ask it in love. I was really curious once I read your bio.

[catransplant48]

Ingrid who turned down the gracious invitation to the conference.

Ingrid who doesn't allow comments on her blog.

I hear ya, Richard.

Chris, don't let anyone pressure you. Take your time thinking about what you took away from this summit meeting. Share with us what you feel led to share. All of us are interested in your perspective and thoughts.

Can I ask everyone to please calm down? Satan laughs when he sees this kind of disharmony in the Body of Christ because it repels Unbelievers. Actually, it repels some Believers, too.

When you're commenting remember that one day, like it or not, we'll all be in Heaven together. Remember, that includes Pastor Rick Warren. And he'd probably be the first to walk up to you - no matter what you've said about him in the past - and say, "How are you, friend? Great to finally meet you!"

[Chris Rosebrough]

Janine, Gayle & others,

Please note I was merely PASSING ALONG Rick Warren's 'building bridges' explanation. I have NOT stated my opinion regarding his explanation for his methods.

[TIm Reed]

Ah Keith its so sweet of you to quit posting on any blog I actually write on but to keep slandering me anyway.

Just for the record, I'm not angry when I post, not even when you're out here slandering me, that's something you either read into it or deliberately lie about.

[KW]

"...I'm not angry when I post..." Actually, you come across as angry ALL the time. Glad we could meet up here at ET.

"...keep slandering me anyway." Actually this is the first time I've envoked your name anywhere in a month. Some of us have jobs and can't just sit in front of a PC picking fights with every Tim, Dick (Richard) or Harry that has an ax to grind.

Richard defends Rick Warren. You defend Richard. Now THAT'S sweet.

[Tim Reed]

Keith,
You've been explicitly told multiple times by myself and my wife that I don't post angrily, and yet you still insist on spreading that lie. Then when you're confronted on it you respond with an insult and justification for spreading that lie. Is this really the way you think its proper to conduct yourself?

[KW]

Tim: Yes. You (and Mandy) can keep telling me. You're tone ain't backin' it up.

"Spreading?" To what vast audience?

I knew you couldn't resist getting in the last word. All I (or anyone else) has to do is dangle that string in front of you. Just like this. This is really getting boring and WAY too predictable. Have a great Memorial Day.

[Tim Reed]

So, now I'm a liar too?

I'm glad you're enjoying your game Keith.

[Tim Reed]

Also, Chris R, I'm sorry you've had to endure the unfair criticism that you have so far for not publishing the audio, and for not blasting Warren soon enough. I know it probably doesn't bother you, but it still shouldn't have happened.

[Douglas]

1 Corinthians 13

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing. Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known. So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

[Tim Wirth]

Hey Steve you stated
This is a question for Tim Wirth. I found your blog, and read your bio (unless there is another Tim Wirth who is a musician and runs a blog against Rick Warren).

You state, in your bio:

1. "Tim has also been blessed to play with Paul Baloche, Lincoln Brewster, Darlene Zscech and Hillsongs among others." "and friends Alex Acuna, Abe Laboriel SR, Justo Almario"

Each of these artists are regular supporters of Rick Warren and PD, having been regular performers at Saddleback Conferences, and much more. They have also invited many Saddleback people (including Rick) to participate in their events, conferences and projects. Is it not hypocritical to earn a living playing with people who support someone you apparently think is "evil"? (My word choice, not yours)

2. "Tim has played in numerous churchs as well as shows on TBN. "

And this? You criticize Rick Warren, but then appear on perhaps the most theological unsound "Christian" network around? The horrors of what I've heard preached from those airways, and yet, its okay to participate?

This is not meant as an attack - believe it or not, I ask it in love. I was really curious once I read your bio.
Im the same guy. I played with Baloche for Integrity Music 15 Birthday at Integrity Music in Mobile it was part of a worship conferance. Carl Albrecht is Pauls regular drummer, and a great guy. I love Paul and his music. Its his choice to support Warren I do not. But we dont play together so there is no conflict there. As for the others I played at Calvery Temple in Modesto CA for a while as percussionist and drummer. Thats where I got to play with Lincoln, Darlene and some others mainly congas and multi perc. I recorded with Abe, Alex, Justo Steve Camp and others to produce and do two CD's for the troops overseas which was given out for free to them. I advertise the TBN thing because I can speak about Word Faith folks because I have played for them. I did however compromise for sometime because the gig was so good. I threw myself under the bus because of compromise in my book Pa$$ The Plate and Let Us Prey. It would be hard to be a Christian musican in the world today without having to compromise. So I have exited that field so I would not have to ever rely on not speaking out against false teaching. Steve Camp I know has also paid a big price for his stand on Christian music. Again I advertise that because I really do love the people I have played with and they were a real blessing to me.
I however do not support many of the pastors they support.
And look where the big gigs are.
Look at Joel Osteen church. But Israel is a great worship leader and player.
I feel that musicians compromise because they have to because there music supports their families.
Again look at where the big gigs are.
But of course I dont speak for their choice's
And I have in the past made some bad choices and compromised because the gig was so good.
No problem with the question Im not as bad a guy as some may think. We got a lot of free Christian music to the troops with some great players contributing. And I do not regret that at all.
Even though I may disagree with some of my fellow players choices in who to support.
Peace
Tim Wirth

[steve]

Thank you for your thoughtful answer...

[steve]

In the interest of being honest...I just now realized my name has been appearing as "steve". Steve is a friend of mine who borrowed my computer for a short time, and apparently did some blogging, because this site seems to have me logged in as him. My real name is Tony, and I will log out and re-log in as myself, should I comment any further. Sorry if anyone caught that and was bothered by it.

[Steve Martin]

Me too. I am also a 'steve'. I wish I had an excuse for it...but I don't...

[Janine]

Chris
Looking forward to hearing your take.
Janine

[Chad]

Chris, regarding the non-release of the agreed upon audio taping of the interview, you said this:
"Both Bob Dewaay and I decided that it would be inappropriate to post the audio because we believe that the audio would be unfairly used against Rick Warren and could be construed as the both of us trying to elevate our status at Warren's expense."

Forgive me, but somehow this just doesn't make sense. You and others on this site and alittleleaven stop at nothing to parse everything Warren does and says and display it for the world to see - all of which is has the de facto result of making him look like the antichrist and you the bastion of truth. It seems odd to me that you will not divulge the contents of the interview out of fear of making Warren look bad.

peace,
Chad

[Paul P.]

Chris,

Maybe it's time to close down this thread? There's some seriously off-topic and un-Godly bickering going on.