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Rev. Paul T. McCain

Yes, and amen!

"All this out of pure, fatherly, divine goodness and mercy, without any merit or worthiness in me; for all which I owe it to Him to thank, praise, serve, and obey Him."

and He lived a purpose driven life for you

"In order that I may be wholly His own, and live under Him in His kingdom, and serve Him in everlasting righteousness, innocence, and blessedness."

And because of what Christ did . . .

"He calls, gathers, enlightens, and sanctifies the whole Christian Church on earth, and keeps it with Jesus Christ in the one true faith; in which Christian Church He forgives daily and richly all sins to me and all believers."

Consequently, as the Word is taught purely among us...

"We as the children of God also lead holy lives in accordance with it" and in this way hallow God's name.

catransplant48

Chris, bitterness is extremely unbecoming.

Interesting....not a single comment or posting from you about the civil forum Rick Warren is hosting at Saddleback Church today.

Well, much as it probably irritates you and the many others who post on this site regularly, the eyes of the world (and that would include Evangelicals) are definitely on Pastor Rick and Saddleback Church today, and have been for the last few days. Let's see what they have to say. And be Christian enough to give a fair assessment of your own, if you watch. Be Christian enough to pray for him as this groundbreaking forum airs. I dare you.

TONIGHT, August 16th, 5-7 PM (Pacific Standard Time) Civil Forum - Rick Warren, Host. Guests: Sen. Barack Obama and Sen. John McCain. Watch live on CNN, FOX NEWS and other local channels.

Martin Diers

@catransplant48

Sir, I challenge you to put your money where your mouth is, and listen to Chris' several programs on Rick Warren, both here, and on issuesetc.org, and then come back and apologize for your knee-jerk response to this post. You don't know what you are talking about. The thought that Chris would miss this evening's Forum, and fail to comment upon it, accurately, and in Christian love, is laughable.

I have never heard Chris even once be bitter against Rick Warren, but I have heard him express his heartfelt wish that those who hang on Warren's every word would instead hang on every Word of the Good News of Jesus Christ, and Him Crucified. Perhaps you should do likewise.

Dave

Not bitter, 'cat.' Oh yes, do tune in, or since you can't avoid hearing about it, just listen to all the fondling OC frenzy the media feeds to us and the world ... Rick, Is he a pastor or a politician? Separation of church and state? ... Sacred and secular kingdoms in confusion? ... Savior or socialism? Those are the questions. It's NOT about the pols in this "civil forum" running for prez. Talk about the "civil" world in glee over using the "sacred" world to advance its "holy causes." No wonder our culture is SO self-centered and confused! No thanks to this type of narcissistic "civil festival." Welcome to the ultimate episode of "The O.C." Kyrie Eleison!

catransplant48

I'm just sitting here laughing.....you all are truly too much! Like the saying goes, give people enough rope and they will hang themselves. Keep ranting away! Like it or not the Civil Forum was a HUGE success. That's because the visionalry leader behind the idea is walking with the Lord.

Ron

It was an excellent forum and Warren didn't back away from the difficult questions.

Ron

It was an excellent forum and Warren didn't back away from the difficult questions.

Matt S.

The forum did not really deal with faith very much. There were a few scattered things here and there, mostly from Obama. Although I do think it was important that the candidates were forced to clearly state their positions on some issues and some of those issues were the moral issues that decide votes.

Rick Warren did a good job, he was a good host. I don't think this was THE forum on faith that a lot of people were looking for. I wish Warren would have pressed the candidates a bit, like giving Obama some verses regarding God knowing us in the womb and how it was inconsistent with his faith. But I didn't really expect that to happen anyway. This was a very non-confrontational event with really little to no mention of Jesus Christ.

I think that it is very dangerous for the church to begin mixing with the world and entering the political stage. The message of the cross IS offensive to those who are perishing. And when people who are not disciples of Christ begin embracing a church-led forum such as this - this is a sign that the message has become less offensive. This can only mean that it is not of the cross.

Preach Jesus Christ, in season and out of season...see what kind of response the world gives.

Bill

Great post by Chris.

With regard to the forum though, I kind of disagree with people saying Rick Warren should have pushed Obama on abortion. I mean if you are going to do that, let's make sure the Bush administration is pushed over murdering people in Iraq, Bush not being a peacemaker but a warrior, torture at Guantanamo etc. All the crimes Bush has committed far exceed anything Obama will do or other recent US presidents have done.

wilson

Is this part of Warren's attempt to align the 3rd leg of Drucker's stool?

catransplant48

Warren did not have to "push Obama" on abortion. Obama skirted the issue and it was easy to see here was an important place where his talk wasn't matching the walk. McCain, on the other hand, was right on the money: life begins at conception. As Sen. Obama will discover, when his answer is dissected, there is no "grey" area on this issue. Kudos to Rick Warren for asking a tough question. It may be the moment that turned the election.

And Matt, the church is called to be the arms and feet of Jesus. What would have happened to the residents of Louisiana and Mississippi who were waiting for the gov't. to help them after Katrina without the church and faith based organizations coming in to help? The tsunami victims? Myanmar typhoon victims? Midwest flood victims?

I have news for you, the church is ON the political stage, like it or not. When the church opens her arms and doors to the lost we are doing exactly what Jesus commanded in Acts. "When people who are not disciples of Christ begin embracing a church-led forum such as this - this is a sign that the message has become"....something they might actually be open to hearing.

catransplant48

Ingrid, since you don't allow comments on your site but you do read this one, I cite your post dated August 15th. Looks like you owe Rick Warren and apology.

*Updated* Washington Post: Rick Warren is America’s Pastor of Election ‘08
Abortion, which has taken the lives of nearly 50 million Americans, is about as likely to get addressed at Saddleback as Obama’s well-documented past relationship with Frank Marshall Davis. That is to say, it won’t be addressed by Rick Warren...I’m trying to imagine Rick Warren holding either candidates’ feet to the fire over abortion. In that Warren is the only one allowed to ask questions, I find myself daydreaming that Rick Warren might miraculously have some moral courage.


Ron

I'm afraid Ingrid was blinded by her own bias and it bit her.

catransplant48

I just read the comments on Slice of Laodicea (Rick Warren Gives a ‘Purpose Driven Grilling’ of Obama and McCain) posted by Kevin Williams, the person Ingrid left "in charge" while she is gone for a few days. I can't believe I am saying this but you MUST READ his comments. Anyone with a functioning brain will be floored. The ignorance is completely off the scales. It is absolutely pathetic.

Ingrid whould benefit from listening to the message Rick Warren gave today on Leadership, because leaving someone like Mr. Williams in charge shows she could use a good dose of discernment.

Unbelievable!

Deborah

So, everybody else keeps calling catransplant48 a dude, but I'm petty sure you're a girl, because no offense, but you sound like an ignorant woman. Like I would be if I didn't read my Bible.

PS. I'm going to have to wind up voting 3rd party anyway- both candidates have miserable voting records on abortion. I'm moody and pregnant, and you just can't mess with that.

catransplant48

And we wonder why our country is such a mess....statements like Deborah's are mind-boggling. I had to read what she posted twice to be sure I got the full impact of her judgmentalism, assumptions, and incorrect information because honestly, I actually could not believe that anyone (pregnant or not) could post something so ignorant. But oh yes, she did.

And then she has the nerve to say I'm the one that sounds like an ignorant woman.....my, my, my............Deborah, sorry, but that is truly laughable.

Douglas

"And we wonder why our country is such a mess...."

Your country in in such a mess because you have false teachers and Scripture twisters like Rick Warren dominating the show.

Eric21

Chris, thank you, from the bottom of my heart, for your enlightening critique of the Purpose Driven Life movement. I am a french reader of yours, who discovered lutheranism through Issues etc. My baptist pastor is thinking of using the PDL in our congregation : I am going to send him that doctored book cover and send him links to your work, hoping it will make him think. Thanks.

akira Kurosawa

Deborah, just a thought.

Just because you are moody and pregnant, doesn't give you the right to be rude to anyone. Even if you disagree with them completely.

Next time you feel like taking out your frustrations someone, turn off the computer, and walk away.

Douglas

"Next time you feel like taking out your frustrations someone, turn off the computer, and walk away."

Do you keep your own advice perfectly? Who are you to judge?

Akira Kurosawa

So it's okay for you to call Cat an ignorant woman, but I can't tell you to stop being mean?

How does that work?

Who am I to judge...?

I judge by your statements. By Biblical standards they were rude and unloving.

catransplant48

Ingrid, if you are reading this, I am thankful that Kevin Williams' disgraceful post was removed from your site at Slice of Laodicea. I don't know if it was because you read what I wrote here or because of what Richard Abanes wrote, but I'm glad to see it is gone.

You should never leave Kevin Willams in charge again. He came across as childish, hateful and unchristian. He did himself and the body of Christ a real disservice. Sadly for him, any credibility he had is gone.

And by the way, I still think you owe Rick Warren an apology (or at least an amendment to your August 15th post).

Douglas

"So it's okay for you to call Cat an ignorant woman, but I can't tell you to stop being mean?

How does that work?

Who am I to judge...?

I judge by your statements. By Biblical standards they were rude and unloving."

Huh?

Where did I call someone an ignorant woman? I think you cannot judge the posts properly and whom writes what, eh? I didn't think that persons statements were rude and unloving but hey that's just me.

"Next time you feel like taking out your frustrations someone, turn off the computer, and walk away."

You're the one sounding a tad frustrated I reckon, maybe you should heed your own advice, eh? Turn off your computer and walk away? Good idea? You brought the idea up in the first place didn't you?

Rick Warren is a blatant Scripture twister and all his followers will not deal with that. If Rick Warren does not deal with the sin of twisting and distorting God's Holy Word how can Warren's followers possibly deal with it? Is that rude and unloving to point those facts out?

Personally, Rick Warren's teachings do frustrate me, they are riddled with error and make me wonder if Christianity is a big con, a rip-off or something???? Thankfully, with no help from Rick Warren, I know Christianity is true based upon sola Scriptura and the wisdom of many trusted theologians like R. C. Sproul and John MacArthur for a couple of examples. I am glad I do not follow Rick Warren's teachings and he will have to give an account to God for deliberately torturing God's word and misleading people with his rote example prayer he gives on page 58 of his PDL book. Btw, the Greek meaning of the word "twist" in Scripture is "torture." Rick Warren "tortures" God's Word often. Horrors! If someone pointed out to me where I "tortured" God's Word I'd be flat out on the ground, with my face in the dust, repenting with tears for having done so. I would hate to ever deceive people, intentionally or unintentionally.

I'll tell you what, that "cat" dude or dudess will NOT deal with even one of the Scriptures Rick Warren twists, distorts, tortures. Why? None of Rick Warren's followers and supporters of his Purpose Driven Movement will come out and speak up about Rick Warren doing that. Why? Will they be classed as resisters? Will they be thrown out of Saddleback or one of its clones and the whole Purpose Driven Program if they dare speak up against the false teachings and Scripture twisting embodied within it? I have not seen yet an article or heard a message by Rick Warren where he does not distort or twist at least one of the verses, often more than one, he uses in his teachings. Whether they be from a bad translation, an even worse paraphrase, or he shortens them or takes them out of their intended context to proof-text his very own ideas.

Purpose Driven Resisters - Must Leave or Die
"Those who oppose the "program" are called leaders from hell."

Spirit-Led or Purpose-Driven? Part 4
Dealing with Resisters

akira Kurosawa

lol, Doug you are correct, I didn't catch it was you asking who am I to judge. So let me correct my statement. I judged Deborah based on her statements. Her reply was rude and unloving.

The Bible is pretty clear on what is unloving if you aren't sure about what I am referring to, Chris had a beautiful post on it, check the archives.

Frustrated, lol, not even close. You "discernment ministry" people, make me laugh. Accusing others of personal attacks and then making your own.

And you Douglas, you're one of the most entertaining, if you can't dazzle them with brilliance...at least baffle em for half a page, lol

And when that runs out....throw out a "who are you to judge", the old standby accusation.

lol, keep it coming Doug, love chuckling at your posts

Becky

Aren't catransplant and RAbanes one and the same?

catransplant48

Akira, your post about Douglas' post had me ROTFL. But as Douglas will undoubtedly tell you, his past has left him with major anger issues, which unfortunately, he has not completely dealt with; therefore he seems to have a penchant for taking that anger out on fellow-bloggers.

Yours is truly the quote of the year concerning certain ODM bloggers: "If you can't dazzle them with brilliance...at least baffle 'em for half a page". Oh man, that is RICH!

I have another one: "I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed person!"

I've got my arms up, fending off the verbal blows that are sure to come my way for the above quote, for many ODM bloggers certainly seem to have lost their sense of humor.

catransplant48

Backy, that's a huge compliment, but no, two totally different people. You can take that to the bank.

catransplant48

Sorry....Becky. It's been a long day.

Douglas

"And you Douglas, you're one of the most entertaining, if you can't dazzle them with brilliance...at least baffle em for half a page, lol"

Even if only one person is snatched from the fire it will be all worth it. Eh? Whether my brilliance dazzles or not. Richy Rich A reckons folks that oppose Rick Warren and his false purpose driven program and Scripture twisting are nut cases doesn't he? I am not trying to "baffle" anyone and I am sorry for doing so.

Jude 1:17But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. 18They said to you, "In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires." 19These are the men who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit. 20But you, dear friends, build yourselves up in your most holy faith and pray in the Holy Spirit. 21Keep yourselves in God's love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life. 22Be merciful to those who doubt; 23snatch others from the fire and save them; to others show mercy, mixed with fear—hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh. 24To him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy— 25to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen

Here are a few well written essays that may help many people escape the clutches of Purpose Drivenism. The Purpose Driven Life is more like a cult than true Christianity I reckon. One virtually has to sign their soul over to the whole Purpose Driven Regime and its programs and covenants, so on and so forth. What a legalistic, binding trip it places upon people and most of them aint even aware of it. Sad.

We may laugh and joke about certain things but false teaching and Scripture twisting is deadly serious and no laughing matter. True?

"The greatest tragedy is not death, but life without purpose" - Rick Warren page 30 Purpose Driven Life.

That is a lie. Every one has a life with a purpose, even the wicked for the day of evil. Pharaoh had a purpose didn't he? Was he born again? Judas had a purpose didn't he? Was he born again? Hitler had a purpose didn't he? Was he born again? Even though God does not delight in the death of the wicked the wicked will receive justice. Justice is something we all deserve. Why do some receive grace and mercy and others receive justice? Why does God not treat everyone equally? We are created in His image aren't we?

"The greatest tragedy is not life without purpose, but death without Christ. Death without Christ is the greatest tragedy anyone can face. A Christ-less eternity within the confines of the lake of fire."

Becky

No problem, catransplant. I have long days, too, sometimes. BTW, what do you mean I can take that to the bank?

catransplant48

Becky - It only means that it's true; you can "bank on it", count on it. It's just an expression.

Becky

Got it.

Douglas

"Akira, your post about Douglas' post had me ROTFL. But as Douglas will undoubtedly tell you, his past has left him with major anger issues, which unfortunately, he has not completely dealt with; therefore he seems to have a penchant for taking that anger out on fellow-bloggers."

Hey, by bringing up me past (Again. To scoff and mock?), you reminded me of these blokes. Have a good look through. I wonder if they are in the lake of fire now? I wonder if any of them got saved before they carked it? I wonder if any of you Yankees would go and proclaim the true gospel to those still alive or would you preach the purpose driven gospel instead? Those fellas that are still alive there have a purpose don't they? They are Hells Angels aint they? That's their purpose in this life isn't it? Raising hell? Do you pray for them? Would you go and preach the full-orbed, doctrinally sound, biblical gospel to them? Thank God Christians preached the gospel to me otherwise I'd be in the lake of fire now, I sure did some utterly depraved things in those days, I was really evil at diverse times. Horrors! Sometimes I think of the pleasures of sin but hey, once one has their hands to the plough no looking back, eh?

"But as Douglas will undoubtedly tell you, his past has left him with major anger issues, which unfortunately, he has not completely dealt with; therefore he seems to have a penchant for taking that anger out on fellow-bloggers."

What sort of Christian are you to keep using part of someones testimony against them? You do it. Richard Abanes does it, Many do it. Nasty stuff. Like I have said, false teaching and Scripture twisting makes me angry. Where does it say not to be angry towards false teaching and Scripture twisting?

Ephesians 4:26Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath: 27Neither give place to the devil.

I suppose every time Paul confronted false teachers and Scripture twisters in the church he handed them a box of chocolates and a bunch of sweet smelling flowers before he thoroughly rebuked them?

catransplant48

Douglas, all I can say is, if you don't deal with your obvious anger towards Rick Warren (you pretty much come unglued at the mere mention of his name, which is not normal) and towards anyone who disagrees with you (like it or not, it comes across that way in your writing), you are going to end up a bitter person. And bitterness eats away at the soul like cancer.

We've all had/have issues we need to deal with in order to be who Christ wants us to be. I strongly suggest you deal with your anger. For your sake, so that you can be all God wants you to be.

Deborah

As usual, it appears I have bitten off more than I can chew in picking a fight with that girl catranslant48.

Just a side note, the moodiness is directed toward the candidates voting record, not my snarky remarks toward Rick Warren defenders. It's amazing- Akira judged me based on my statements, and yet I am held in great distain for judging RW and his ilk based on THIER statements? Incredible.

Besides, I'm this much fun even when I'm not with child. And, I suppose, also this unloving.

Jim W

Douglas, I, for one, appreciate your heart and the things you post. Ignore such as cattransplant. I would rather read your righteous anger towards anyone who abuses the Word of God, than all the sweet mouthings of those who support such drivel.
PS, I'd love to talk bikes and such with you some day. I know where you're coming from.

akira Kurosawa

Deborah, I have absolutely no disdain for you or your opinion of Rick Warren, even if your opinion is wrong, lol

My disdain was for your personal attacks, nothing else.

And Doug, I don't think any of your writing is snatching anyone from the fires. It is simply a vent for your anger and hatred. But if it helps you work through your emotions, hey, roll with it brother, we are all here to listen.

and some of us even chuckle.. :)

Douglas

"And Doug, I don't think any of your writing is snatching anyone from the fires. It is simply a vent for your anger and hatred. But if it helps you work through your emotions, hey, roll with it brother, we are all here to listen.

and some of us even chuckle.. :)

wilson

Catransplant48, Chris is not bitter. Chris and Douglas and others here are concerned. Passionately concerned. Saddened by the misuse and mistrust of God's Word which characterizes the Purpose Driven(R) brand. I notice you immediately changed topic to discuss the civil forum at Saddleback as if to say "look at the good Rick Warren is doing." without addressing anything in the original post.

To Cat and others - wrongly dividing the word of truth is a systemic problem with the Purpose Driven movement. This problem as Chris and others here would like to get across is that this abandonment of God's word as the standard leads to a whole manner of problems. This website, alittleleaven, and all the other "ODMs" are all about highlighting these problems and saying "there is something wrong here.", "these are the fruits of PD" or any other "method".

Read a simple thing like this

http://www.eternity-investing.com/discernment/NotSoundDoctrine.pdf

and then try and tell me the PD paradigm is based on sound Bible study. Does Warren let God's word speak for itself or does he take a bit here or there and make it say what he wants? Suddenly the Bible becomes a series of wise application sayings rather than a cohesive story about what God has done and is doing and will do throughout human history.

Another problem is you hear Rick Warren and other PD advocates saying over and over and over again that it is a biblical model like a mantra, "god made you for a purpose" "god made you for a purpose". This is true in part, I won't deny that. But the purpose is to be conformed to the image of Christ that eventually all will bow before the Lamb in Revelation. That is our ultimate purpose as Christians. But apparently you need 5 purposes and you need to start catching up if you haven't got with the program.

Then there is this arrogance that if a church is not fulfilling the 5 purposes of Purpose Drivenism it is not a real church. That sounds like a very Roman Catholic thing to say and has no foundation in Scripture. In contrast, the invisible church is made up of people bought with the blood of Christ and indwelt by the Holy Spirit. It does not occupy a building on Sunday. it does not limit it's activities to 5 purposes on Sunday but the overarching single purpose, the end game, the ultimate destination, is Christ. He is the one around whom people from every tongue, tribe, people and nation will worship and bow down in awesome reverence. If we understood this better, if we got our heads into this stuff, if we allowed our lives to become saturated in God's Word, guided and led by the Spirit to a fuller understanding of his grace and our sinfulness then we won't need to be deliberate about anything. We will overflow with love for others, we will overflow with words of the Gospel, we will overflow with praise for God. we won't be concerned about getting a number on a scale in each of the 5 boxes. Chris' heavenly rewards calculator is trying to make this point. Why do we need to complicate things?

Or this:
Fort Worth, TX: I am thankful for your ministry and I am a Southwesterner myself, but I have heard some comments about your style. How would you respond to critics who call you "seeker-sensitive" and that you're watering down the gospel to make church fit the people, instead of vice versa?

Rick Warren: This is an old, spurious "straw-man" criticism, made by people who've never been to Saddleback or studied it. We have the strongest, most stringent membership requirements in America! I would match the spiritual maturity of any 500 members of Saddleback against any 500 members of any other church.

That entirely depends on your definition of SPIRITUAL MATURITY, and also your definition of stringent membership requirements. Now that right there is a WORLDLY total quality management approach to "doing church". Rick is saying "we're more spiritually mature than any church in America". Rick is saying "we are the standard for spiritual maturity." This is exactly what one can expect from a business management approach to church.

btw, just what are these membership requirements? Is Saddleback a club?

in contrast, What are the membership requirements of Christ's true church? Think about it. What are the membership requirements of Christ's true church?

I have rarely seen anyone defend Rick Warren's position interpretation and application of Scripture from any kind of Biblical frame of reference. Now I don't know if I haven't looked hard enough or is it because it's simply indefensible. The only return argument is "look at the good he's doing". Warren frequently boasts about his figures, how long he's been in ministry, how big his church is, how long he's been to college, how much Greek he's done 6 years. he lets THOSE THINGS, those worldly measurements to say look at how "successful" I am. If he's done 6 years of Greek, why does so little of it come through in his messages? Not saying that you need Greek in every Bible talk but the point he is making is that he has done all this study he is saying he's got the same qualifications as other ministers (finding common ground) yet consistently and sadly misapplies the Bible. But then you will say "look at the good he's doing". But I will say "what is the cost of what he's doing?"

"What this world needs Is for us to stop hiding behind our relevance.
Blendin` in so well that people can't see the difference
And it's the difference that sets the world free."

Like I've said before on this blog, we don't need a ground breaking manifesto on the meaning of life. We already have it. It's called the Bible.

akira Kurosawa

Wilson, have you looked at the requirements to join a Lutheran Church lately? Have you looked at what is required to take communion in a Lutheran church. Tell me it isn't just as "clubish" as the examples you have given...

and I think the bigger question... is "clubish" even a word...

I use the Lutheran church as an example because it is what I am familiar with. Not because they are any worse than any other denomination or anything like that... (so don't nail any thesis to me please..lol)

wilson

Hi Akira

I don't know the membership requirements for the Lutheran church, sorry. My argument is that placing membership requirements on any believer can, while attempting to maintain some kind of consistency of belief within a particular denomination or church, go above and beyond what the Bible requires. Saddleback for example requires signing a covenant for membership. The Bible says don't make oaths. There is only one covenant for believers. That is the new covenant. Why isn't that enough?

How can Rick know that he has the most stringent membership requirements in America? These kind of broadbrush statements are not helpful and unverifiable. However, this might be evidenced in part by the fact that resisters to the movement are asked to leave and hence there is a degree of stringency. Those who resist change are treated as unbelievers, or they are labelled as being unfaithful to God because they don't agree with the new packaging. The author of one book about transitioning churches through change describes those who resist change as being "from hell".

I would also like to make a comment about my previous post: perhaps I have misinterpreted Warren's statement "I would match the spiritual maturity of any 500 members of Saddleback against any 500 members of any other church." I can't know that and I don't want to be commenting on the spiritual maturity of any particular Saddleback member for any congregation will have degrees of spiritual maturity.

The question is: what is Rick Warren's definition of spiritual maturity? Is it defined by how well one is fulfilling the 5 purposes as if these are the Key Performance Indicators of one's walk with Christ? Then the question is: by what measurement stick do we assess the KPI and then who sets the standard for how well one is doing? On a church scale Warren says "if you are not fulfilling the 5 purposes you are not a real church." This is a different definition to church than what the Bible says and I addressed that in the previous post. This opens up a pandora's box of questions like: do "I" need to work harder at one particular area. The 5 purposes become the standard by which you live so you spend your life and your church time trying to balance the 5 purposes.

In contrast we need to recognize that we can never measure up to the standard that God requires, that it is only through Christ's death and resurrection that God sees us as righteous or our good deeds as good. God doesn't smile when I be me because I am sinful. Even my good works are tainted by sin. Now this doesn't mean that we don't do good works or even try to do what's right. Good works are an outworking of sanctification (the status and the process). Christian maturity develops in the direction of increasing faith, grace and knowledge, love, hope and good works - all of which are God's work and doing and flows from Him changing us by His Spirit when we deny ourselves daily in submission to the lordship of Christ.

wilson

If someone says that Rick Warren is the inventor of perpetual revival (as has been said in the past), or that the Purpose Driven movement guarantees results, then they must believe that they have figured out a physical mechanism to effect a fundamental spiritual change in people. It's a fairly mechanistic view of conversion - "If I implement this strategy then our church will grow." and a very small view of God. As the Granger example shows - numbers are no indication of conversion. it might just mean you have more people in the building. (see http://www.rickwarrennews.com/bio_rwarren.htm for some quotes about this)

The Bible says that the Lord opens the heart for people to receive the Gospel. The Bible says that the early church grew because people devoted themselves to preaching the Word and prayer and the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved. (compare this view with the above view and the link provided)

Now the question is where does the emphasis of each view lie? one is on man's ability and the strategy has been around for 20 years, one is in God's ability and it has worked successfully for 2000 years, through changing cultures, in different countries, in different languages. Why do we need to change it?

 martha

What is the point of arguing with Saddleback devotees? The cup they drink from is the one with the Kool Aid in it. . .They don't know the Gospel sanctifies; they think they "work" with God to sanctify themselves. . .it's good old Arminianism dressed up in business management rags. . .

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A Little Leaven

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