If I was Dying & I Walked Into Your Church

Poignant.

Comments

[Walker]

Cat,

Looking up and down these message boards I definitely have some real disagreements with you. However whenever I see someone making an honest and Biblical defense of the Gospel, I have to applaud it. In your last couple posts you have given a fantastic defense of salvation by grace alone through faith alone. I am sure you will probably say something I disagree with at some point in the future, and we may very well argue, but in this you are right on. I pray that you continue to share the Gospel.

Your Brother in Christ

[Walker]

Actually that would be to Cat and the last post by Akira about repentance. Akira you snuck in there so at first I thought it was all Cat.

[Ray]

Akira:

"Because if true repentance is required for salvation then we are all in deep trouble. And anything less than true repentance is insufficient for God. And if you can't do it perfectly and get it right the first time, He doesn't accept it."

What?!?! Scripture please!

-Ray

[catransplant48]

Christian: please define repentance as you believe it is used in the verses you cited. I think that's why you are off the mark on this one.

[Christian]

catransplant48:

I'll use the word, "metanoeo," as defined in the Greek in those verses I quoted earlier. From Strongs:

1. to change one's mind, i.e. to repent
2. to change one's mind for better, heartily to amend with abhorrence of one's past sins

With that definition, I'll pose the same question to you and Akira once more:

Yes, or no. Is repentance a necessary component of salvation?

--
Christian

[catransplant48]

Christian:

You have the correct definition as it is used in Scripture. So if someone "changes their mind" about Jesus and believes He is who He says He is, they have repented of their disbelief. In that respect repentance is a necessary part of salvation because otherwise the unbeliever would still be an unbeliever. This is the biblical repentance that logically allows for salvation to occur as an unbelieving person is dying.

However to attach anything more to the defintion of repentance in the process of salvation would automatically place many people under the blanket of legalism instead of accepting what God tells the dying world is theirs for the asking: Salvation by grace through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

"For by GRACE you have been saved through FAITH; and that not of yourselves, it is a gift of God; not as result of WORKS, so that no one may boast."

[Christian]

catransplant48:

You took one part of the definition of repentance, the, "changing of one's mind," and applied it only to having belief or disbelief in regards to Jesus. The second part of the second definition shows that it's not just about belief or disbelief, but a contempt towards sin in general.

With that in mind, let me phrase my question this way: Yes, or no. Is repentance of sin a necessary component of salvation?

I know, it may sound like I'm splitting hairs, but there is a point behind all of this, and I'll share it with my next posting.

--
Christian

[catransplant48]

I took the translation of repentance as it is used straight out of the Greek dictionary just as you did. Now if a pastor words it differently when inviting people to "change their mind" about Jesus or "put their trust in the salvation freely offered through the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross", he may not be saying "Repent!" but by all accounts in reality that IS what he's saying. It's just not presented in the way some people who post on this site like, so they would find fault with it. An unbeliever can't become a believer without changing their mind about Jesus. If an adulterer who is carrying on an affair accepts Christ's gift of salvation at a church service and is hit by a car and killed on his way home, he hasn't had the chance to demonstrate an outward appearance of conversion or confess his sins and cease his sinful affair. Does that make him any less worthy of heaven than you or I? To say yes would put Jesus to shame and make a mockery of the gospel. All have sinned and fall short. Christ died so that we may live. His sacrifice was once, for all.

There is nothing to "slpit hairs" over. We are saved by grace through faith in Christ.

[Chris Rosebrough]

Here are a few passages regarding repentance. The problem that many have is that they think that Repentance is 'our part' of salvation. Not so. Even Repentance is a gift from God.

Luke 15:3   So he told them this parable: 4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open country, and go after the one that is lost, until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and his neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep that was lost.’ 7 Just so, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.

Question: What was the lost sheep's contribution to its repentance?

Luke 15:8   “Or what woman, having ten silver coins, if she loses one coin, does not light a lamp and sweep the house and seek diligently until she finds it? 9 And when she has found it, she calls together her friends and neighbors, saying, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found the coin that I had lost.’ 10 Just so, I tell you, there is joy before the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

Question: What was the lost coin's contribution to its repentance?

As for a Biblical definition of repentance let's look at Paul's words:

2 Corinthians 7:8 For even if I made you grieve with my letter, I do not regret it—though I did regret it, for I see that that letter grieved you, though only for a while. 9 As it is, I rejoice, not because you were grieved, but because you were grieved into repenting. For you felt a godly grief, so that you suffered no loss through us.

2Cor. 7:10   For godly grief produces a repentance that leads to salvation without regret, whereas worldly grief produces death.

[Christian]

catransplant48:

Here's why I think you have a difficult time with my yes or no questions about the repentance of sin being a part of the presentation of salvation:

If the answer is, "no, repentance of sin is not needed," then we can look to Scripture and see clearly the command for repentance, such as in Acts 2:37-38 or Luke 24:47. And, call it a hunch, but no one would want to go there for fear of justly being labeled a heretic.

If the answer is, "yes, repentance of sin is needed," then we can look to the presentation of salvation I quoted earlier from, "Better Together," and see how the explicit mention of repentance is absent, which would confirm my assertion that Warren's teaching was lacking and errant.

Instead, both of your applications of repentance in regard to my question were only related to the identity of Jesus, and not with regards to sin at large ("So if someone 'changes their mind' about Jesus and believes He is who He says He is, they have repented of their disbelief." "An unbeliever can't become a believer without changing their mind about Jesus.").

Repentance of sin is not a work, as Chris described above. By our own strength, we cannot overcome sin. It is a part of the grace that is offered through Jesus Christ. But, like it shows in Romans 6, we cannot continue on in sin. We hear such admonishment from Jesus and the Apostles about repentance from sin and that being a core part of their messages. So, that is why the salvation message should include both faith and repentance together.

In conclusion, I suspect that the reason I failed to receive a clear, "yes," or, "no," was because you are more concerned about wanting to defend your pastor than anything else. But, that is only a guess, and I cannot judge your heart in this matter.

--
Christian

[catransplant48]

Nope, Christian....nothing in defense of my pastor or passing judgment on anyone elses salvaton. I was saved from my sin by grace and my salvation can't be taken away, even if I were to slip back into some of the evil habits that nearly killed me years ago. Hallelujah, because for those of us with addictions, it is a daily, hourly struggle. And if we are all honest with ourselves we sin daily in thought and deed, so I thank God for the saving grace of Jesus that washed my sin away. As a believer I know I am clean and forgiven by believing that Jesus is who He said He is, did what He said He did and accepting His free offer of eternal life by trusting in His promise.

"For godly grief produces a repentance that leads to salvation without regret, whereas worldly grief produces death." I agree. And this change of mind can happen in a church or on a deathbed.

[catransplant48]

Walker, I forgot to thank you for your post. I appreciate the kind words. Rejoicing that we are saved by grace through faith alone. May we never lose sight of the awe that should inspire daily.

And Akira, I still think you are one of the most sane, reasonable and kind people on this site. Bless you.

[jesusman]

The problem isn't that they're talking in their church about purpose or whatever, it's that they talk about practically nothing all the time at their churches and then telling them that they're " purpose driven people ".

[catransplant48]

Ah yes, jesusman.....just pass a blanket judgment on every church service that you have not even attended and sift every pastor you have never even met through your personal filter of righteousness...........

[Chris]

For those who are Believers:

When you get to heaven and God says, "I allowed you to be born into the wealthiest nation on earth with all of its privileges. Did you spend your time ministering to the poor and brokenhearted or were you too busy arguing over minor subtleties of my Word."

What you are talking about here can be summed up by saying that too many Christians would rather debate hermeneutics instead of putting their faith into action. Trying to call other pastors/ministers on the carpet for their interpretation is God's job, not yours.

Are you making an impact for Christ or are you distracting ministers from fighting the real battle? Only you and God can honestly answer that question. Let's hope you get the right answer here on earth before God interprets your version!