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Steve Newell

The Early Church also placed doctrine as being most important. This can be seen in both the Nicene Creed and Aspotles' Creed both begin "I believe". The third creed, The Athanasian Creed, begins with "Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith." All three creed are statement of what we believe, i.e. doctrine. Nowhere in the creeds cover the life of the Christian.

John C

If "Christianity" is merely a belief system, a right "doctrinal" movement of sorts then it is in no way superior to the various and sundry religions (external belief systems) of the world. Here's a question, if we had no access to a bible, to scripture or even to church, to fellowship would Christianity cease to exist? Now we all know about the "underground" church in persecuted history and current nations, ie China, etc. I mean for you, personally if you had no access to scripture, had no church (building) to go to and no people to fellowship/worship with...would that be the end of your so-called "Christian" life?

We get so comfortable with all the externals when Christ is within, (2 Cor 13:5, Col 1:27). It's time we look, and find Him again right where He said He would reside, in our spirit man (1 Cor 6:17). Christ being in you means that the very substance of life resides within, and that is what makes you...alive, eternally for He can never die, His zoe kind of life not being subject to death and decay. Doctrine is secondary to the life of Christ within. We feed off that internal life and He becomes our life. In the spirit there is no duality, no wrong doctrine, only truth and truth is always liberating. He will lead us and guide us into ALL truth. Our beliefs will never really satisfy us, only our Christ who would rule and reigh from the throne of our surrendered hearts (spirit man) can satisfy our souls.

Love like Him

Paul L.

Thank you so much for this post, Chris. Although your purpose in quoting from Machen was to highlight the important of doctrine, I appreciated it in another way. I was recently having a discussion with a sister in Christ about how a Christian's obedience is different from that of a legalist. I tried my best to give an explanation to her, but I'm not sure I did a good job. I think the last three paragraphs of the Machen excerpt was just what I was looking for--especially the numbered steps detailing how Paul and the Judaizers differed in how they viewed keeping of the law. I emailed her those paragraphs; I pray they will be a blessing to her.

Ray

John C:

"Doctrine is secondary to the life of Christ within."

John, your argument is ridiculous and self-condeming. Doctrine = beliefs. Do you believe something about Christ? Then you have a christological doctrine. The fact that you even quote scripture means you think you have some biblical support for these doctrines of yours. Everyone has doctrine. If you have beliefs about Christ, that is doctrine. If you don't believe in Christ, that is also doctrine.

Doctrine is always the beginning, even for you. This stuff you keep writing about "the life of Christ within" and "Christ being in you means that the very substance of life resides within" and "We feed off that internal life and He becomes our life" and "In the spirit there is no duality, no wrong doctrine, only truth and truth is always liberating" - that is your doctrine.

Can you not see that in your condemnation of our doctrine and, more imporantly, the idea of doctrine itself with doctrine of your own you are thereby also condemning yourself since you are using doctrine? Why should we listen to you?

If I were to take your last post and take out everything that was related to biblical doctrine, I would be left with this:

"...Here's a question...Now we all know about the "underground" church in persecuted history and current nations, ie China, etc..."

And even those little bit could be debated in the greater context of the post.

John, if you stopped speaking/writing based on and/or refering to any of your doctrines, you would have nothing to say but "How about this weather?".

-Ray

John C

Ray,

Thanks. So, are you saved by doctrine, or by Christ? You can't right "doctrine" your way into heaven Ray, only Christ can offer His saving Self to us and that life, His within is the only thing that causes the proverbial death angel to "pass over" us in judgment, God seeing His son's life in us,(Gal 2:20). Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his (Romans 8:9). Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son INTO YOUR HEARTS (spirits), crying abba Father Gal 4:6.

Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is IN you...2 Cor 13:5

If I don't "believe" exactly right that's not the end of me, but if I dont have Christ indwelling me than I am most certainly lost.

There are many doctrines but only one Saviour, Christ Himself saves.

Douglas K. Adu-Boahen

We are saved by faith - not doctrine. Amen to that. What do you do with Paul's admonitions regarding sound doctrine? Use white-out on 'em? Doctrine is just as important as experience - in fact, your doctrine will inform your experience.

Steve Newell

John,

I have a very simple question: Is the Christian life defined by Christian doctrine or is Christian doctrine defined by the Christian life? The first is a objective view of both doctrine and the Christian life while the second is a subjective view of both.

If you look at the great commission, we see that Christ instructs the apostles to first make disciples through Holy Baptism in the name of the Triune God then they are to teach (Christian doctrine) new believers to obey all things(Christian life) that Christ has commanded.

The doctrine of the Christian life is what shapes our lives. When we try to shape doctrine to our lives, we run the risk of creating a personal doctrine that runs counter to the Christian Doctrine. Believing the wrong doctrine could lead to unbelief and a rejection of the True Faith.

John C

Steve...

Here's the answer to your question and the secret...only when we are full of the spirit and yield to His leading within will we "walk in the spirit" and the spirit "knows all things". The spirit that we received (Christ IN us, Col 1:27) is fully sufficient to produce holiness, wisdom, Christlikeness, He is all we need in every moment and every situation. Paradoxically, He is also childlike and beautiful, trusting the Father and not requiring constant reasoning (doctrine) to live by, for He already knows the truth for He IS the Truth, He is ONE with the Father (John 17), do you see that?

Not once did you mention the spirit of God, this tells me you are still attempting to "reason" your way through the kingdom, which is also a here and now proposition-Jesus Himself declaring the kingdom of God "has come" past tense. Here's another secret Steve that when you realize this will set you free and bring about a fruitfulness in your "ministry" and that is that Christ IN you is your ONLY ministry. YOU (and I) are not capable of "doing" anything. Jesus Himself said these words "of myself I can do nothing, I only say and do what I see my Father in Heaven saying and doing". Are we any better or different than Christ?

The reason Paul had to keep harping on "doctrine" which by the way means "God's mind" is because they were mere babes trying to live by mere reasoning, not yet walking in the fulness of the spirit and so had to be led by the hand every step of the way until...Christ be formed in them, Gal 4:19. Their minds had not yet been renewed, washed, they had not yet been "renewed in the SPIRIT of their minds". Eph 4:23.

Have we?

Ray

John C,

You just rebuked Steve's doctrine with your own doctrine to tell him that doctrine is bad, useless, and is "attempting to 'reason' your way through the kingdom" (one of your doctrines).

Why should we listen to anything you have to say?

-Ray

Rick Frueh

Obedience to truth (doctrine) is essential to substantiate that truth. It is only secondary to making sure the truth you are obeying is...well...true.

Steve Newell

John C,

First, you did not directly answer my question. Either you didn't understand it nor you chose not to answer it.

Second, You are very presumptuous of my spiritual condition by the various statements you made. In addition, you appear to be implying that you are more spiritually mature than those that Paul wrote to since you appear to say that you have moved beyond the need to focus on the doctrine of the Christian faith.

In all of Paul's letters, even to the letters to Timothy are full of doctrine. In many of his letters, doctrine precedes the Christian life. Why? Because correct doctrine most always preceeds teachings on how we are to live because correct doctrine leads to correct living, but correct living will not lead to correct doctrine.

The moment we believe that we have moved beyond the need to learn and relearn the truths of our faith (doctrine) is when we need to repent and go back. We must continually hear the teaching (doctrines) of our faith to keep us grounded in the truth. When we believe that we have moved beyond this, we can open ourselves to other teachings outside of the Christian faith, including ones we create ourselves.

John C

Steve...

"He who will do the will of God shall know the doctrine, whether it be of God or himself (man"), John 7:17. Do you understand what this means? The "doctrine" here is the mind of God. This is how we know the will of God, by doing it. Sounds backwards huh? If it wasn't for the spirit within it would be impossibe. We were intended to be spirit led (Romans 8:14) for we are in fact spiritual beings.

Nowhere on this blog do I see anyone speaking of the the spirit, and that is very concerning for its all about the spirit led life (Romans 8:14), that's the only way we can really know God, by His spirit communicating with ours, even joined to ours (1 Cor 6:17). When we read scripture, we can learn things "about" God, but that is not the highest, deepest experience a believer can have for it remains within the realm of logic.

Father would have us to come up higher, always higher in the spirit that we might be led of the spirit, fruitful, relevant and our souls well nourished by His presence and Life within.

Douglas K. Adu-Boahen

When we read scripture, we can learn things "about" God, but that is not the highest, deepest experience a believer can have for it remains within the realm of logic.

Utter and complete bull. Paul seemed to think Scripture alone was sufficient:

2Ti 3:16-17 WEB Every Scripture is God-breathed and[1] profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for instruction in righteousness, (17) that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Every believer has the Spirit of Almighty God dwelling in them and yet Paul says that the Scripture were able to make someone thoroughly equipped for every thing that God desires.

Better yet, look at Peter's own witness:

2Pe 1:16-18 WEB For we did not follow cunningly devised fables, when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. (17) For he received from God the Father honor and glory, when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, “This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”[2] (18) We heard this voice come out of heaven when we were with him on the holy mountain.

Now you'd think that Peter would have it made. He had an experience so read that none of us could begin to imagine it...and then look at what he has the gall to say:

2Pe 1:19-21 We have the more sure word of prophecy; and you do well that you heed it, as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns, and the morning star arises in your hearts: (20) knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of private interpretation. (21) For no prophecy ever came by the will of man: but holy men of God spoke, being moved by the Holy Spirit.

In other words, "I saw it but the Word is more sure than what I experienced". Seems to me were Paul and Peter alive, they'd be having words with you after church, because your view of God's Word is dishonouring it.

Aaron

Hey, John C., glad to find you over here. You left a comment for me over on "God is bigger than..." and I was late responding. Feel free to see my post over there. After reading this, I understand better where you are coming from. The John passage is about discerning what is of God and what is not. It is about discerning whether a teacher or prophet is Christ-centered or man-centered. When the focus is on our deeds and what we do, our experiences, our holiness, coming up higher, etc., the focus is turned to us, and away from Jesus. You see, the Holy Spirit always points us to Christ. When teachings point to Jesus and His work, we know the Holy Spirit is involved. Since Holy Scripture is Christ-centered, we know the Holy Spirit works therein. Since in our baptism "we were buried therefore with Him...into death, in order that...we too might walk in newness of life" (Romans 6:4), we know the Holy Spirit is working there. Since in Holy Communion Christ says that we receive His body and blood "of the covenant, which is poured out for many," we also know the Holy Spirit works there. When words of absolution are spoken to us after confession, such as, "In the stead and by the command of my Lord Jesus Christ, I forgive you all your sins in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit," we then know and are reassured of the Spirit's presence in our lives, since we know that Christ's sacrifice was for us and covered all our transgressions, and the Spirit prompts our response, which is our desire to do God's will. I mention all of this, because I can never, ever come up high enough for God. Every time I try, I fail miserably. In fact, no matter how much I desire to do God's will (knowing he loves me and Christ's sacrifice is for me), I always fall short. So I continually return to the altar of the Lord and rest on His Word and absolution, His gifts of body and blood, and the washing of regeneration. This is where we find the Holy Spirit!

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