Anatomy of Saddleback Spin - Part Two

In this article I am going to outline the highlights of the lies, smears, misdirection and sophistry employed by Mark Kelly and David Chrzan in the rebuttal piece written by Kelly entitled “No incentive for checking facts”. Although the article was pulled off the internet almost a quickly as it was posted, I’ve managed to reconstruct a copy of it from screen shots that I took of it.

One of the goals of this document was to spin the issue in such a way so as to allow Rick Warren to continue to be able to say that he is Rupert Murdoch's pastor but that the nature of their relationship makes it inappropriate for Warren to excercise pastorly discipline. As you read the story, also notice that what is missing from the document is any condemnation what-so-ever of Rupert Murdoch for his pornography holdings. Click Here to Read It.

Before I begin my response you need to know that Mark Kelly never shows me the courtesy of mentioning me by name in his rebuttal. I am only referred to as ‘the original blogger’. (The folks at Saddleback must think I am like Voldemort from the Harry Potter stories. I am the ‘blogger who must not be named’.) With this in mind let’s begin.

1. The title of the rebuttal

The title of the rebuttal itself ‘No incentive for checking facts’ is a smear and it implies that neither myself nor Joseph Farah had any reason for checking the facts of the story but that we benefit from passing off distortions and lies.

This is simply not true. America’s libel laws are still in effect and being sued for libel is plenty of incentive for any journalist or blogger to get his facts straight before publishing a story like this.

If Rick Warren never claimed to be Rupert Murdoch’s Pastor, as I claim that he has, then I invite Rick Warren to sue me for libel.

2. Membership is not the issue

Kelly’s defense which quotes from a letter written by David Chrzan who is Warren’s Chief of Staff begins by changing the subject. They present the very true fact that Murdoch is not a member of Saddleback Church as proof that Warren is not responsible for disciplining Murdoch.

As I pointed out in both my article entitled “Purpose Driven Pornography?” and Part One of this article. Murdoch’s membership at Saddleback is not the issue. From day one, I was very open about the fact that Murdoch was not member of Saddleback church.

The issue IS the fact that Rick Warren claims to be Rupert Murdoch’s pastor. Since, Rick Warren knows full well that Rupert Murdoch does not live in Orange County we must conclude that Warren’s ability to call himself Rupert’s Pastor is based upon something other than membership at Saddleback Church.

My contention is that because Rick made the claim to being Rupert’s pastor and Murdoch never publicly contradicted that claim the two of them have mutually entered into a Pastor/Parishioner relationship. The details and mechanism for forming this relationship are are unknown to us.

What we do know is that this was not achieved through the normal route of becoming a member of Saddleback.

3. ‘Never bothered to contact the church’

In paragraph five of his rebuttal Kelly said:

“Neither the original blogger (that’s me) nor Farah bothered to contact the church to ask whether Murdoch was a member.”

Point 1 - As I previously pointed out, membership at Saddleback is not the issue.

Point 2 - Kelly is twisting the truth when he says that neither Farah nor myself bothered to contact the church.

I DID contact the church and I posted the contents of that conversation on my blog. In my conversation I was specifically told by Pastor Warren’s secretary that Murdoch was not a member of Saddleback Church. I never attempted to hide or conceal this.

I cannot speak for Joseph Farah, but I cannot possibly imagine Joe Farah going to press with this story without first attempting to contact Rick Warren, especially after the whole Syria flap.

4. ‘He read somewhere’

Also in paragraph five Kelly says of me:

“The original writer jumped to that conclusion because he read somewhere that Warren said he was “Rupert Murdoch’s pastor.”

Kelly makes it sound like I read this in a bathroom stall in a truck stop in Modesto. But fact is, I first read this on Rick Warren’s own Pastors.com website. Here is the link.

There is only one reason that Kelly would write a sentence like this, that is because he is trying to smear me and cause his readers to think that my case isn’t built on demonstrable facts. But I am sure that anyone with even a little common sense would agree that Rick Warren's own website is more than just 'somewhere'. Furthermore, the person making the claim at that 'somewhere' was Rick Warren himself. I was hardly jumping to conclusions. I was simply believing what Pastor Warren had stated on his own website.

Here is the quote:

“I had dinner with Jack Welch last Sunday night,” [Warren] said. “He came to church, and we had dinner. I’ve been kind of mentoring him on his spiritual journey. And he said to me, ‘Rick, you are the biggest thinker I have ever met in my life. The only other person I know who thinks globally like you is Rupert Murdoch.’ And I said, ‘That’s interesting. I’m Rupert’s pastor! Rupert published my book!’” Then he tilted back his head and gave one of those big Rick Warren laughs. (Online source)

Notice that in this paragraph Warren discusses the fact that he was 'kind of mentoring' Jack Welch on his Spiritual journey. Welch had even attend a service at Saddleback. Yet, Warren didn't say that he was Welch's pastor. But he did make a rather gleeful point of saying that he was Rupert's pastor.

This will be important to remember when considering the next point in the Saddleback rebuttal.

5. “Pastor in the sense”

The Saddleback rebuttal defines Warren’s pastoral relationship with Murdoch this way:

"Rick Warren is Rupert Murdoch’s pastor in the sense that over the years they have had “numerous spiritual conversations and times of prayer’” (Emphasis mine)

I call this their ‘Pastor in the sense’ defense. (Which, by the way, still has them admitting that Warren is Murdoch's 'Pastor' but they are trying to shade what that means.)

If you read the quote above from the Pastors.com website, you'll notice that the description of Warren's 'spiritual' activities with Murdoch sound identical to the activities engaged in with Jack Welch. But, Rick has never claimed to be Welch's pastor.

The real question that needs to be answered is why would Rick claim to be Murdoch's pastor and not Welch's? Two possible answers are that Warren was 'name dropping' and bragging in a moment of weakness when he said he was Murdoch's pastor or there is a qualitative difference in his 'spiritual' relationship with Murdoch as compared to Welch.

If they were being consistent they'd have to say that Warren was also Welch's 'Pastor in the sense' but they don't.

The 'pastor in the sense' defenses sounds more like an attempt to redefine what the word ‘pastor’ means in order for Warren to be able to still say he is Murdoch’s Pastor without having to follow through on all the duties that go with being someone’s pastor. These would be the ‘less fun’ duties like correcting, rebuking and disciplining.

I’m sorry but Warren can’t have it both ways.

Either Rick is Murdoch’s pastor or he isn’t. If he insists on holding on to this ‘pastor in a sense’ defense then he has the obligation to demonstrate from God’s word that it is even possible to be a ‘pastor in sense’.

They need to show us from the Bible what the different ‘pastoral senses’ are.

They then need to show us Biblically, which ‘senses’ require a pastor to exercise discipline and which ‘senses’ are relieved of that duty.

While I was earning my degree in Pastoral Ministries I was never informed about different Pastoral ‘senses’. I was taught you either are someone’s pastor or you are not their pastor. There were no ‘in between / hybrid’ senses to the pastoral office.

So either Rick Warren IS Murdoch’s Pastor or he ISN’T they need to tell us which it is and stop trying to have it both ways.

6. “Christians showing so little regard for the truth”

One of Rick Warren’s signature traits is his gift for twisting scripture. Rick Warren can seemingly take any passage of scripture and make it say anything that he wants it to say. He is so good at it that I’ve given it a name. I call it making ‘Bible Balloon Animals’. If you’ve read his book “The Purpose Driven Life” you will see that that book is a veritable zoo of ‘Bible Balloon Animals’. Each ‘animal’ began as a scripture passage. It was then ripped from its context and skillfully twisted and shaped into saying something completely different than what the Holy Spirit intended. (Here are links to articles on this topic Resource 1, Resource 2, Resource 3 Resource 4

It appears that Mark Kelly has learned this skill from his master, Rick Warren. In one of the most surreal and ironic passages in the rebuttal Kelly said:

It is regrettable that people who present themselves as Christians would show so little regard for the truth and focus so much time and energy on fomenting strife.

God’s kingdom is not well served by contrived controversy. The world needs to see the power of his love and grace at work in our lives, not “hostility, quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, divisions, [and] the feeling that everyone is wrong except those in your own little group.” (Galatians 5:20 NLT)

In this portion of the rebuttal Kelly is trying to color the bloggers and journalists who have been diligently working to expose the errors of Warren’s teachings and methods as a group of amateur hacks whose stock in trade are lies, distortions, fictions and outrageous accusations. To support his claim Kelly creates his own Bible Balloon Animal.

The verse that Kelly is “supposedly” quoting from is Galatians 5:20 from the New Living Translation (NLT). But this is a deception.

In reality, Mark spliced this verse together using the NLT and the Living Bible (a paraphrase). The end result of this artistic twisting is a Bible Balloon Animal, and a verse that doesn’t exist in anyone’s Bible.

Even if he correctly quoted the verse, it is still ripped from its context and is being misused to support a false teaching that those who work together to expose the errors of teachers like Rick Warren (Mark has not established 'as fact' that their work is fiction) are doing a work that is sinful and wrong. But this passage is not teaching this at all. Let’s read this verse in context. Here is what it says.

Galatians 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, 21envy,[d] drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. (ESV)

This passage, in context, using a good translation is warning about about the works of the sinful flesh. One of these works is dissensions. What is a dissension? A dissension occurs when someone gathers followers around himself and his false teaching rather than around Jesus Christ and sound doctrine.

The bloggers that Kelly attacks are making the claim that Rick Warren is the one who is causing dissension in the Christian church through his Bible Twisting and the innovations that HE introduced in the church.

Those who are taking the time to critique Warren’s teachings and warn people about his Bible Twisting are not fomenting strife. Instead, they are being obedient to God’s word which tells us to:

2 Tim 4:2 preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching.

Titus 1:9 He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it.

When Rick Warren twists scripture into ‘Bible Balloon Animals’ he is teaching things that are contrary to sound doctrine. The church’s Biblical duty, like it or not, is to rebuke him.

Therefore let me quote Mark Kelly to Mark Kelly as a rebuke against him.

“ It is regrettable that people who present themselves as Christians would show so little regard for the truth” ... and mislead them by mishandling God’s word.

Repent Mark it is a grievous sin that you’ve committed by mishandling God’s word in this manner.

More to come...

Comments

[jimmy]

I am praying for you bro.

Peace!
Jimmy

[Dave]

Chris:

Thanks, I found Rick's blustery quote: "And I said, 'That's interesting. I'm Rupert's pastor! Rupert published my book!'" Then he tilted back his head and gave one of those big Rick Warren laughs."

Apparently those Saddleback guys don't read or pay attention to what Rick says all the time!

I question Rick's use of the term "pastor" and IF he knows what it really means to be one in the first place!

I've grown weary of the blatant psychopathy and outright narcissism in all of this public display! I could care less WHO Rick cavorts around with and plays "pastor" to!

Christ have mercy on the whole deal...

[Pastor Mark]

Same ol', same ol'. If you are a popular Christian leader every loser in the world will try to bring you down.

Murdoch owns the company that publishes Warren's books and the two have met and Warren has witnessed to him. Asked about him once Warren laughed and said he was Murdoch's pastor (should have said "I'm practically his pastor" or "I'm like a pastor to him" but any decent person should be able to figure out he was speaking analogically as when Billy Graham was called "pastor to the presidents").

You can only discipline members of your church. Murdoch isn't.

Another critic gets his ten minutes of self-righteous fame. Hope you're enjoying it. Truly, truly, I say to you, you have your reward. Hopefully Warren won't let this keep him from hanging out with tax-gatherers and sinners.

[Steve]

Pastor Mark:
What is the role of the Pastor in church discipline? If Rick Warren makes such a public claim that a given individual is under his pastoral leadership and care, does not he, as a called and ordained Servant of the Word, has the responsibility to correct that individual if that individual is sinning and is unrepentant?

Also, just because a Christian leader is popular with the world, does not mean that he is above reproach. Paul corrected Peter when Peter wrong acted (Gal. 2:11-21).

[Douglas]

"Hopefully Warren won't let this keep him from hanging out with tax-gatherers and sinners."

It won't and he will continue on preaching a watered down gospel containing twisted Scriptures. Warren's "The Purpose Driven Life" book is all the evidence God needs. Rick Warren is a wizard at preaching half-truths. His preaching is so inoffensive that the world loves him. The thing is, can he repent for what he has done and is still doing? It is so very sad that millions of people around the world have been deceived by him.

Redefining Christianity: Understanding The Purpose Driven Movement

[Keith B. Coates]

One of the first things I noticed when reading the Rick Warren Blog: (No Incentive for Checking Facts) was Mark Kelly's usage of scripture. Misquoting what translations that he used was first. The LB and NLT were interposed being used together. Second even Rick himself when doing his scriptural spins uses ellipsis marks to indicate that he has left out some of the verse.

 Notice here Galatians 5:20 in the NLT: idolatry, sorcery, hostility, quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, dissension, division,

Tyndale House Publishers, Holy Bible : New Living Translation., 2nd ed. (Wheaton, Ill.: Tyndale House Publishers, 2004). Ga 5:20.

Notice here Galatians 5:20 in the LB:

idolatry, spiritism (that is, encouraging the activity of demons), hatred and fighting, jealousy and anger, constant effort to get the best for yourself, complaints and criticisms, the feeling that everyone else is wrong except those in your own little group—and there will be wrong doctrine,

Kenneth Nathaniel Taylor, The Living Bible, Paraphrased (Wheaton, Ill.: Tyndale House, 1997, c1971). Ga 5:20.

Mark Kelly Writes:

God’s kingdom is not well served by contrived controversy. The world needs to see the power of his love and grace at work in our lives, not “hostility, quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, divisions, [and] the feeling that everyone is wrong except those in your own little group.” (Galatians 5:20 NLT)

Wow! Who's misquoting who?

To repeat Mark Kelly’s words I say Yes “It is regrettable that people who present themselves as Christians would show so little regard for the truth and focus so much time and energy on fomenting strife.”

I just wanted to add a side note concerning Rick Warren. I have noticed in studying Rick Warren's teachings that he is a master spin doctor of Scripture. In using the many translations that he does, he is able to spin, twist, and distort context of any given scriptures that he misuses and he does misuse them alot!

Keith B. Coates

[Dave]

Mark:

As for being lumped with the "losers" and people who are not "decent" of the world, I'm in fine company as identified, thank you, with those very "tax-gatherers and sinners" in need of a Savior on a daily basis!

That's why I'm attracted to Jesus and NOT to Rick in the first place...at least Jesus identifies with ME right off the bat, and not with 'A' type narcissists of this world!

Talk about one seeking, as you say, "self-righteous fame!" If the shoe fits, wear it Rick!

It's called "calling a spade a spade" in my book. Chris and this particular "critic" are in good, solid company with the saints!!!

That's the problem with your operating "theology" Mark. It's about "deeds not creeds" which gives hollow motivational "new" definitions of "spirituality" as taught by Rick.

It's also about keeping the large sums of $'s and notariety coming in to sustain the operation...

Good luck sustaining that!

Christ Alone, Kyrie eleison~

[Michael]

I cannot believe this discussion. Clearly Rick was saying this about Murdoch in a general sense, as in "America's Pastor" not in a specific sense as in a member who would be subject to discipline.

It seems like you are spending a lot of energy attacking Rick Warren. At least you allow comments here, the guys over at Christian Research Network don't allow comments, so I assume they are afraid of what others will say on their site.

Go read Scoble's Naked Conversations and allow comments.

Don't you all have anything more productive to do than simply critique a pastor?

[Erica]

Chris,

I would not disagree with you on the fact that it seems silly to say that you are someone's pastor when really you are not. He could have said that he was discipling him or something along those lines. However, I am not sure how he is suppose to discipline him if he does not go to Saddleback?

Are you wanting him to acknowledge publicly that he is not supportive of his life style?

I wonder if there is not more to all of this than what we see.

I have not hid the fact that I am not a Rick Warren fan. I believe he is a christian and I believe is doing a lot a good. He gets a lot of public attention and that can cause problems some time.

Any way I am just confused as to what you want to happen in all of this?

BTW, it was nice of you to call the other day. Feel free to call any time! We do share a lot of the same concerns you do.

[ALAN]

Michael:

RWarren is not only a pastor, but he's becoming "America's Pastor," along w/ the other quax like Joel Osteen and Robert Schuller.

Specifically, what "more productive" thing would you suggest rather than trying to un-twist the Gospel and the purity of the Church of Jesus Christ away from this man who is at the very least a pathetic mass of carelessness and neglect?

[Chris Rosebrough]

Erica,

There is A LOT more to this than what you see.

At this point Rick should do one of two things.

A. Confess that he over stated the facts (lied) when he said that he was Murdoch's pastor.

B. Issue a statement as Rupert's pastor stating that Murdoch's pornography business dealings are a sin and an affront to the cross of Christ. Rick should them call him to repent of his sins and bear fruit in keeping with that repentance by dismantling his porn businesses.

It's Very Simple.

If I were Murdoch's Pastor that is exactly what I'd do.

[Michael]

Chris,

Since you say Murdoch is not a member of Saddleback Church,it seems the only issue left in your argument is Rick Warren admitting that he is not Murdoch's pastor, which he seems to have done with the remarks from his chief of staff.

Am I missing something? or is this a dead issue?

[Craig]

I am a member at Saddleback and find the amount of time you are investing rather hilarious. Rick is such a small part of my spiritual growth. You are acting like Rick is God or at least trying to be God. I am involved in small groups, my childrens programs and a myriad of other activities and interact with Rick on an occasional Sunday morning when I get to sit and listen to his sermon. He is preaching the scriptures and telling the church there is only one way to get to heaven and it has nothing to do with Rick but through our Heavenly Father. Saddleback is not about Rick, its about small groups that meet weekly. If you really want to write about something that matters why don't you get an interview and ask him to his face about his theology rather than tear apart everything he writes or says.

[Steve]

Craig:

The Christian church is not about small groups, it is about Word and Sacrament. If a church is not proclaiming both Law and Gospel, in its worship, and properly admistering the Sacraments, then the Church are not following the command of Christ.

Small groups or activities are not the basis of a chruch. If the activities of church do not point to Christ, then the activities are purely social in nature.

[Steve]

All:

If PlayBoy started a "Christian" publishing arm, should a Christian use them to publish their book? No. There is no difference between NewsCorp and PlayBoy in that they both sell the same thing. NewsCorp is just alot larger. Most of Christian publishing isn't about proper doctrine but about selling stuff.

Zondervan is not a Christian publisher just a publisher marketing to Christians. If you want a book on Baptism, Holy Communion, or Justification, they have only a few books. However, if you look search by "Christian Life", you get over 20 items. Zondervan is more about the Christian then the Christ.

[Craig]

Chris,

You are making huge leaps on assumptions. To assume these groups and activities are strictly social is false. Saddleback is light on the depravity of man (sin) but there is plenty on election, atonement and grace. Are you worried that everyone is clueless about their sin? Yes, Rick could preach on sin more than he does but to think that we have to have it rammed down our throats every week just isn't necessary. I realize that the Christian community is concerned about "The Church Growth Movement" and I am doing my research to figure out where Saddleback falls into this conflict, but I have to be honest, your message is a turn off and extremely petty. You seem to be a little fixated.
Do you believe that if someone accepts Christ as their personal savior and repents that it matters who and how that decision came about? If I don't hear enough about my sins every week am I going to hell?

[Pam]

The real issue seems to be getting lost in the argument of what Warren meant by saying he was Murdoch's pastor. The real issue is Murdoch's pornography business and how that is SIN. People are trying to let Warren off the hook of disciplining Murdoch by saying he isn't really Murdoch's pastor, but one does not need to be someone's pastor in order to show them their sin. Galatians 6:1 says "Brothers, if someone is caught in a sin, you who are spiritual should restore him gently. But watch yourself, or you also may be tempted."

[Michael]

Pam, why don't you write to Mr. Murdoch? I think if everyone would spend a little time doing that (as you suggested) instead of writing another comment to this post it would be a better use of our precious time.
Quite honestly, Rick Warren may have done this already, we simply don't know.

[barefoot christian]

nobody has mentioned "unequally yoked" ... !

but, then again, since murdoch's deliberate porno peddling excludes him from the claim of Christianity & since warren's deliberate heresy peddling excludes him from the claim of Christianity TEACHER, they are actually perfect yokefellows, are they not?

pastor mark:

did Jesus benefit financially from the tax-collectors & sinners that He "hung out" with?

in other words, did they publish His book & make Him a millionaire overnight?

or, put another way, was there a conflict of interest in Jesus' association with tax collectors & sinners?

or, put still another way, did He put Himself in a compromising position by becoming a business partner with tax collectors & sinners?

michael:

you've posted here 3 times already ...

don't you have anything better to do?

like maybe reading the parts in your Bible that discuss false teachers?

& the proper response to them?

craig:

don't you watch canned (i.e. saddleback-produced) DVDs in your small group?

don't you spend much of your free time marching to warren's P. E. A. C. E. plan drumbeat?

& which parts of fascist/socialist do you not understand?

btw, could you enlighten us all by quoting the mormon scriptures that detail how the only way to heaven is by keeping "heavenly father's" ordinances, rather than belief in Jesus (Who, according to mormon scripture, is really lucifer's "spirit brother")?

pam:

can warren be both murdoch's pastor & business partner at one & the same time?

is this not a conflict of interest?

do you really think warren is going to rebuke the man who made him rich & who invests millions of dollars in saddleback church?

not.

the truth is that warren & murdoch are partners in business & ministry, so warren cannot possibly be murdoch's pastor ...

which means that warren's "pastor" claim is either a lie, or a gross overstatement.

&, rather than admit (& apologize for) a lie, it appears that warren is attempting to back-pedal from the "pastor" overstatement.

but any way you look at it, whether pastor, business partner, ministry partner, or friend, warren -- if he really is Christian (& the jury is still out on that one) -- should not associate with a known pornographer & especially not one that he is benefitting from financially.

we could forgive warren if he associated with murdoch out of ignorance, but, at this point, warren cannot possibly claim ignorance, since murdoch's business holdings are a matter of (loudly trumpeted) public record.

& focusing all the attention on pastor/not-pastor is a brilliant move on warren's part (& a stoopid move on his critics' part), because it takes all the heat off of warren for making a buck (several million bucks!) out of his association with murdoch.

gotta hand it to warren: he's a master spin doctor & purpose-driven distraction specialist extraordinaire.

[Michael]

Barefoot Christian,

Honestly, I do read my Bible. But I also use my computer a lot (I think we all do if we are reading this thread.) I appreciate your challenge to examine false teachers, but I do not share your conclusion regarding Rick Warren. I consider Rick Warren to be right on track.

Sure he speaks with sinners....

Sure he interacts with influencers...

Remind you of anyone?

Jesus came for the sick, the lost, the hurting, the depressed... I for one am glad he came for sinners like me. And as far as I am concerned, Pastor Warren is doing the same thing... going to where the sinners are and taking the gospel to them.

It is not realistic to think that everyone Rick Warren talks to will accept the redemptive work of Christ on the spot... or that they will change their ways overnight... it is also unrealistic to expect Pastor Warren to address every issue that comes his way... I am sure few of us could handle half of his required correspondence.

So, I am wondering if we actually think he will read this thread... or the blogs at all for that matter...

Take a listen to his podcast at http://blog.pastors.com and you will hear a pretty open spirit. At least I think he is open, honest and accurate.

Maybe the best thing to do would be to post your questions for Pastor Rick Warren as a voicemail for his Podcast (you can do that on his site). Maybe he would address it on his show?

I think I am finished with this thread. It is ending with a predictable polarization instead of a civil dialog where persuasion is prized and alternatives are considered.

[Bruce Hill, Jr.]

Having read Rick Warren's testimony of his supposed conversion, it just simply does not line up with the teachings of Jesus Christ and the Apostles as recorded in the New Testament of the Bible. We are not to judge anyone's salvation experience. We are to look at the fruit of their life. Rick Warren has the fruit of a do-gooder, but not of a born again, Spirit-filled believer in the Jesus Christ of the Bible.

Therefore, Rick Warren is doing what heathens do best. Promoting Rick Warren and making a bunch of money, as well as getting more powerful as each deceived person believes in Rick Warren, and forsakes Jesus Christ.

Whether or not Rick Warren intends it, he is helping to usher in the age of the Antichrist.

[Mike Simms]

Man, you guys really need to get over yourself. No matter if you agree with Rick or not, I think you're just asking for it when you condemn him, because he associates himself with someone easily identifiable as "SIN". So for all you guys who have posted on this forum and haven't ever look at girl with lust in you're heart you're much better than me. But I am a sinner just like you and Murdock, and even the murderers. And my salvation was purchased by Jesus blood, so that I might have eternal life. I am not better than Murdock. Maybe you think you are part of the "elect" and these lowly people could not be by their behavior. Again, I'd challenge you to read your Bible. Even Jesus said for those of you who are doing my work, people will hate you for it. (And before you guys try to tear me down for not quoting your favorite Bible, I am simply paraphrasing.) It's your life and your choice, but I might think long term consequences when I condemn someone who is doing God's work, even if the methodology is not what you're comfortable with. I know for me God is not interested in my comfort, but my obedience. God wants us to share his light and his word with the lost, even the worst of them!

[Kevin Scott Bailey]

You should do two things:

(1) Learn to see the shades of grey in life. Not everyone defines the word "pastor" the way you do. There ARE different senses of the word, including the strict biblical definition. It would behoove you to use common sense, and understand that Warren is clearly not talking about the traditional biblical use of the word in regards to his relationship with Murdoch.

(2) Go share the Gospel with someone. Instead of attacking fellow brothers in Christ for what you perceive to be their missteps, why not share the Gospel of grace with someone who is hurting? Or would that just be too much to ask?

[CD-Host]

I run a blog dedicated to church discipline. I complete fail to see how the procedure you outline above meets the standards of due process required for the excommunication of Murdoch. Essentially what you are arguing is that Warren is expected to deal with dozens of subtle issues of church law without the benefit of a church court, or an eldership. And this is a very complex case, involving issues like does employing someone who employs someone to commit sin carry the same status as directly employing someone to commit said sins. As far as I know canon law requires direct contact.

Being someone's pastor does not entitle you to unilaterally discipline them, that requires the session. If Warren were to consider you credible (which he might not given that you have not addressed the complexity of the law in this case), then he might choose to bring the charge before Murdoch's session; but that is all he is entitled to do. The actual act of discipline is not something that a pastor can or should do on their own.