Rick Warren: “Any church that fails to fulfill the five purposes...is not really a church!”

by Chris Rosebrough

Yes you read that headline correctly. That is a quote from Rick Warren in Mark Kelly’s latest spin piece for Saddleback entitled “Seven myths about ‘Purpose Driven’”.

The piece itself has two wildly surreal statements in it, that if you consider what is really being said, ought to make you question the entire ‘Purpose Driven’ church concept.

The first is a quote from Rick Warren himself:

Rick Warren says: “The five purposes of the church commanded by Jesus in the Great Commandment and Great Commission never go out of style. They are not a fad. They are eternally relevant. Any church that fails to fulfill the five purposes Jesus established for his people is not really a church!”

Wow!?

If your church isn’t fulfilling the 5 Purposes, according to Rick Warren it “is not really a church!”

Maybe its me, but this sure does sound like a dogmatic and judgmental rebuke by Warren. This seems a little out of character for a person who according to his apologists, "prefers behind the scenes persuasion rather than public rebuke."

When you take this statement and add it to the next one, you will really be scratching your head.

Said Kelly:

“...you don’t have to be part of any particular denomination to implement PD principles. There are Purpose Driven congregations in more than 200 different denominations and associations. Our desire is to work with denominations to strengthen their churches. Each church can maintain its own heritage and doctrinal convictions while cooperating with others on accomplishing the five purposes...”

This seems really odd to me. On the one hand these folks say that any church that isn’t fulfilling the 5 purposes ‘is not really a church”. But on the other hand ANY church REGARDLESS OF DOCTRINAL CONVICTIONS can be Purpose Driven.

So with these PD folks, the truth of a church’s doctrinal statement doesn’t determine whether or not it is ‘really a church’. But, the thing that matters is whether or not they are fulfilling the 5 purposes.

By Saddleback's own admission, they work with over 200 denominations and help them all be Purpose Driven.

This explains why there are Purpose-Driven Catholics, Purpose-Driven Mormons and soon there will be Purpose-Driven Synagogues. (This must be what Warren means by Deeds not Creeds.)

Do you think there is anything wrong with a definition of church that embraces all churches regardless of doctrinal statements but denies that a church 'is really a church' if it has a difference of opinion with Rick Warren about the purposes it should be fulfilling?

This dichotomy is a little clearer when I put it in a math formula format.

If Rick Warren held both creeds AND Deeds in equal regard we'd expect to see formula 1 as the ONLY true definition of church:

1. Fulfilling 5 Purposes + Sound Doctrine = True Church (Deeds AND Creeds)

But based upon Warren's statement and the fact that ANY church regardless of DOCTRINE can be Purpose-Driven, the Saddleback way of thinking ALSO makes formula 2 a valid formula.

2. Fulfilling 5 Purposes + False Doctrine = True Church (Deeds NOT Creeds)

Warren's ideas also make formula 3 a valid equation.

3. Not Fulfilling 5 Purposes + Sound Doctrine = False Church (Deeds NOT Creeds)

Notice that the thing that decides whether or not a church is a TRUE CHURCH in their way of thinking hinges on fulfilling the 5 purposes. True doctrine is not a deciding factor it is only one of the Purpose Driven 'flavors' of church.

In other words, Warren's dogmatic focus is off. He should be dogmatic about BOTH Fulfilling the 5 Purposes AND sound doctrine. But he's not.

Sorry, but I can't accept this definition of church. Warren and his followers have elevated their ideas about the 5 purposes above sound doctrine. That is why there are Purpose Driven Catholics, Unitarians and United Pentecostals. Each of those groups subscribes to false doctrines and therefore are not part of the true church. But in Warren's way of thinking they are part of the true church.

Sorry but this doesn't fly with scripture.

---

As a counter point to Warren's ideas I offer my podcast entitled What is the Church? In that podcast I lay out the Biblical definition of the church.

Comments

[David Dansker]

How very Popish of Warren: if you don't work the works of PDL, you're excommunicated!

[David Dansker]

How very Popish of Warren: if you don't work the works of PDL, you're excommunicated!

David
TheNewsBeats.com

[the Highland Host]

Further proof (were any needed) that Warren does indeed have a creed.

Yet apparently discipline isn't so important!!

[Larry - KY]

Discipline is looking at the effects rather than the root of the problem.

Why do we put up with Rick Warren as if he is ANYTHING but a false prophet? This whole Rick Warren issue, and others by extension, brings up something that I know is a touchy subject. But none-the-less one that at least bears some thought for the sake of the Christian layman. Doesn’t Rick Warren’s disciplining via the church, i.e. Saddleback, presuppose that 1. Saddleback IS a church and 2. Rick Warren IS a pastor?

I know this gets touchy but if no Gospel, let alone no real Law is being preached there how can they at a most minimal level even be considered a church, or any like them? Seriously. Let alone any consideration about the sacraments. I don’t mean ‘are there Christians there’, certainly there are, but that “institution” itself and its leadership. If it cannot be a church and “pastor” Warren is deluded and a wolf, then how can church discipline take place? I’m not defending Warren’s lack of church discipline, in fact I against him at every point and have attended those type of destructive Warren twin churches before myself that follow him play by play. But I don’t see how church discipline takes place outside of a true church in the first place and no true church exists if no true Gospel is preached (again ignoring sacraments at this level, I’m shooting for minimal Word of Gospel here whereby there might even be a ‘blip’ of a church present). The lack of church discipline is just an effect of the reality.

Any “church” discipline that might take place would seem at best to be without any good whatsoever. It would be almost like calling on leaders of JW churches and Mormon Wards to discipline their people. Why? They are not Christian churches anyway so how could they exercise church discipline for the purpose of the Gospel which is not there in the first place? If one cannot get the Gospel correct or the Law, I don’t see how one could church discipline anyone either because EVERYTHING presupposes these two.

Thus, it would seem more prudent to warn say R. Murdock and all attending such that he does not attend a Christian church at all but another religion altogether, ANOTHER RELIGION. It would seem more prudent to call Warren and his likes on the carpet and tell them for their own sakes they are false and just religious leaders but definitely NOT Christian pastors. And ESPECAILLY for the sakes of those bewitched by his message so that they would know point blank, “this teaching is not a little off needing tweaking, this is ANOTHER gospel altogether…GET OUT…its damned and cursed from top to bottom”. Maybe that’s TOO alarm sounding. Then again maybe in our day and age, in politically correct post Victorian age America we are too compromising for the sake of unity.

I often wonder how Luther, Calvin or Spurgeon would have reacted to Rick Warren and his type? I don’t think one has to stretch one’s imagination too far to say they would resoundingly condemn him in the strongest language humanly possible as a false heretic at best (on a nice day for them) and an apostate at worst (on a normal day). Entertaining him ‘just to be nice’ as an off skew pastor at an off skew “church” is only feeding his delusion, the same delusion he is pumping out into the land at numerous churches and confusing the faithful everywhere. This delusion is setting people onto the clean side of the broad road leading to hell.

Just because Warren and the others affirm with their mouths ‘justification by faith alone’ or “Christ alone is salvation”, doesn’t mean broadly, nor magnitudinally, nor by the reality of what they otherwise teach or act out affirm that doctrine. At least Rome had the good decency of denying it out right and on paper, rather than mouth a sentence or two affirming Jesus alone then onto working our way to heaven, thereby reducing “justification by faith alone” to a one time mere formality.

So I’d argue until the ‘cows come home’ that the underlying assumption for true church discipline at RW’s church is the real issue, namely is it a real church and is he a real under shepherd of Jesus? No Gospel, then there is no church, no church, then no real church discipline is possible. What would RM be disciplined into if RW actually did it? He would basically move from Rome to Judea but not to Calvary.

If one takes seriously Paul’s strong language in Galatians and James’ in his epistle one has a strong and mighty sword against such things. Paul more addresses a false gospel as “a message”, “another gospel” and James addresses the Gospel obscuring ‘actions’ of a church as being yet “another faith” he called “dead faith”. James did not mean that by ‘dead faith’ they had “no faith”, they did have ‘a faith’ (rooted in the sovereignty and holiness per se of God) but that it was not the real saving faith but rather a legalistic faith which ironically leads to antinomianism.

If any evil doer needs casting out rather than accepted as valid, calling himself “brother”, it would first seem to be Rick Warren. Because I can guarantee you his PDL/PDC false religion has done nothing but cause revelry among churches. I can direct you to some at this very moment about to split apart and go bankrupt over implementing PDL/PDC. If Warren is legitimate we have NO reason whatsoever to ignore the Pope of Rome, Rome just made the mistake of formally rejecting the Gospel on paper in Trent. The devil has fixed THAT revealing mistake among protestants and raised up an new clever and slippery tact, you’ll never pin him down again on paper. And instead of inquisitions he’s altered, for now, to smiles and swell good fellas in Hawaiian shirts. It’s hard to say to a man giving money and physically helping with efforts, “You are a wolf in sheep’s clothing, deceiving multitudes into hell, a pied piper.” But then again if he was obvious he’d just be a wolf without the sheep’s clothing.

[Larry - KY]

Discipline is looking at the effects rather than the root of the problem.

Why do we put up with Rick Warren as if he is ANYTHING but a false prophet? This whole Rick Warren issue, and others by extension, brings up something that I know is a touchy subject. But none-the-less one that at least bears some thought for the sake of the Christian layman. Doesn’t Rick Warren’s disciplining via the church, i.e. Saddleback, presuppose that 1. Saddleback IS a church and 2. Rick Warren IS a pastor?

I know this gets touchy but if no Gospel, let alone no real Law is being preached there how can they at a most minimal level even be considered a church, or any like them? Seriously. Let alone any consideration about the sacraments. I don’t mean ‘are there Christians there’, certainly there are, but that “institution” itself and its leadership. If it cannot be a church and “pastor” Warren is deluded and a wolf, then how can church discipline take place? I’m not defending Warren’s lack of church discipline, in fact I against him at every point and have attended those type of destructive Warren twin churches before myself that follow him play by play. But I don’t see how church discipline takes place outside of a true church in the first place and no true church exists if no true Gospel is preached (again ignoring sacraments at this level, I’m shooting for minimal Word of Gospel here whereby there might even be a ‘blip’ of a church present). The lack of church discipline is just an effect of the reality.

Any “church” discipline that might take place would seem at best to be without any good whatsoever. It would be almost like calling on leaders of JW churches and Mormon Wards to discipline their people. Why? They are not Christian churches anyway so how could they exercise church discipline for the purpose of the Gospel which is not there in the first place? If one cannot get the Gospel correct or the Law, I don’t see how one could church discipline anyone either because EVERYTHING presupposes these two.

Thus, it would seem more prudent to warn say R. Murdock and all attending such that he does not attend a Christian church at all but another religion altogether, ANOTHER RELIGION. It would seem more prudent to call Warren and his likes on the carpet and tell them for their own sakes they are false and just religious leaders but definitely NOT Christian pastors. And ESPECAILLY for the sakes of those bewitched by his message so that they would know point blank, “this teaching is not a little off needing tweaking, this is ANOTHER gospel altogether…GET OUT…its damned and cursed from top to bottom”. Maybe that’s TOO alarm sounding. Then again maybe in our day and age, in politically correct post Victorian age America we are too compromising for the sake of unity.

I often wonder how Luther, Calvin or Spurgeon would have reacted to Rick Warren and his type? I don’t think one has to stretch one’s imagination too far to say they would resoundingly condemn him in the strongest language humanly possible as a false heretic at best (on a nice day for them) and an apostate at worst (on a normal day). Entertaining him ‘just to be nice’ as an off skew pastor at an off skew “church” is only feeding his delusion, the same delusion he is pumping out into the land at numerous churches and confusing the faithful everywhere. This delusion is setting people onto the clean side of the broad road leading to hell.

Just because Warren and the others affirm with their mouths ‘justification by faith alone’ or “Christ alone is salvation”, doesn’t mean broadly, nor magnitudinally, nor by the reality of what they otherwise teach or act out affirm that doctrine. At least Rome had the good decency of denying it out right and on paper, rather than mouth a sentence or two affirming Jesus alone then onto working our way to heaven, thereby reducing “justification by faith alone” to a one time mere formality.

So I’d argue until the ‘cows come home’ that the underlying assumption for true church discipline at RW’s church is the real issue, namely is it a real church and is he a real under shepherd of Jesus? No Gospel, then there is no church, no church, then no real church discipline is possible. What would RM be disciplined into if RW actually did it? He would basically move from Rome to Judea but not to Calvary.

If one takes seriously Paul’s strong language in Galatians and James’ in his epistle one has a strong and mighty sword against such things. Paul more addresses a false gospel as “a message”, “another gospel” and James addresses the Gospel obscuring ‘actions’ of a church as being yet “another faith” he called “dead faith”. James did not mean that by ‘dead faith’ they had “no faith”, they did have ‘a faith’ (rooted in the sovereignty and holiness per se of God) but that it was not the real saving faith but rather a legalistic faith which ironically leads to antinomianism.

If any evil doer needs casting out rather than accepted as valid, calling himself “brother”, it would first seem to be Rick Warren. Because I can guarantee you his PDL/PDC false religion has done nothing but cause revelry among churches. I can direct you to some at this very moment about to split apart and go bankrupt over implementing PDL/PDC. If Warren is legitimate we have NO reason whatsoever to ignore the Pope of Rome, Rome just made the mistake of formally rejecting the Gospel on paper in Trent. The devil has fixed THAT revealing mistake among protestants and raised up an new clever and slippery tact, you’ll never pin him down again on paper. And instead of inquisitions he’s altered, for now, to smiles and swell good fellas in Hawaiian shirts. It’s hard to say to a man giving money and physically helping with efforts, “You are a wolf in sheep’s clothing, deceiving multitudes into hell, a pied piper.” But then again if he was obvious he’d just be a wolf without the sheep’s clothing.

[lc]

Acts 2:42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles's doctrine and fellowship,and in breaking of bread,and in prayers. 43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common... The doctrine of Christ and the signs and wonders was given to the apostles by Jesus our Lord and Saviour. And it is no accident that "they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine" is the first act that those who were pricked in their heart did. Their purpose was driven by following the doctrines as the apostles taught. I don't see where RW follows the apostles' doctrine. The apostles did not accept other doctrines or practices.They lovingly, while firmly rebuked them. Had RW lived then, he would've been lovingly rebuked for his global peace plan and his willingness to mix false doctrine in with true doctrine. Had he lashed out at those as he does today, they of the true church would've turned away from him as some do today. He is either a blind follower of his own self interpeted theology or he is a cravening wolf that intentionally deceives. Personally I pray to God for RW to see himself for all the misleading he is causing. God knows RW's heart. If he's not a wolf, then there is hope for his soul. I know the despair felt when the reality hits to be so out of line. I hope RW and all those that support his theology get that, before it's too late. I pray to God to keep me out of my own ignorance and selfishness,no matter how much it hurts. To fall short of HIS salvation is the ultimate hurt and failure. And I fear for those souls who will be lost in a man's doctrine.

[lc]

Acts 2:42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles's doctrine and fellowship,and in breaking of bread,and in prayers. 43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common... The doctrine of Christ and the signs and wonders was given to the apostles by Jesus our Lord and Saviour. And it is no accident that "they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine" is the first act that those who were pricked in their heart did. Their purpose was driven by following the doctrines as the apostles taught. I don't see where RW follows the apostles' doctrine. The apostles did not accept other doctrines or practices.They lovingly, while firmly rebuked them. Had RW lived then, he would've been lovingly rebuked for his global peace plan and his willingness to mix false doctrine in with true doctrine. Had he lashed out at those as he does today, they of the true church would've turned away from him as some do today. He is either a blind follower of his own self interpeted theology or he is a cravening wolf that intentionally deceives. Personally I pray to God for RW to see himself for all the misleading he is causing. God knows RW's heart. If he's not a wolf, then there is hope for his soul. I know the despair felt when the reality hits to be so out of line. I hope RW and all those that support his theology get that, before it's too late. I pray to God to keep me out of my own ignorance and selfishness,no matter how much it hurts. To fall short of HIS salvation is the ultimate hurt and failure. And I fear for those souls who will be lost in a man's doctrine.

[lc]

Acts 2:42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles's doctrine and fellowship,and in breaking of bread,and in prayers. 43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common... The doctrine of Christ and the signs and wonders was given to the apostles by Jesus our Lord and Saviour. And it is no accident that "they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine" is the first act that those who were pricked in their heart did. Their purpose was driven by following the doctrines as the apostles taught. I don't see where RW follows the apostles' doctrine. The apostles did not accept other doctrines or practices.They lovingly, while firmly rebuked them. Had RW lived then, he would've been lovingly rebuked for his global peace plan and his willingness to mix false doctrine in with true doctrine. Had he lashed out at those as he does today, they of the true church would've turned away from him as some do today. He is either a blind follower of his own self interpeted theology or he is a cravening wolf that intentionally deceives. Personally I pray to God for RW to see himself for all the misleading he is causing. God knows RW's heart. If he's not a wolf, then there is hope for his soul. I know the despair felt when the reality hits to be so out of line. I hope RW and all those that support his theology get that, before it's too late. I pray to God to keep me out of my own ignorance and selfishness,no matter how much it hurts. To fall short of HIS salvation is the ultimate hurt and failure. And I fear for those souls who will be lost in a man's doctrine.

[Bread Maker]

I confess that I've read Warren's Purpose Driven Life . . . back in 2003. In Ch 1 he wrote "You were born by his [God's] purpose and for his purpose." Now that's definitely sinister!

Purpose 1 is "You were planned for God's pleasure." That has something to do with believing that God is who he says he is and can do what he says he can do and you are who God says you are and God’s word is alive and active in you and that you can do all things through Christ. If I were to found a church, that seems to be one reasonably safe place to start.

Purpose 2 is “You were formed for God’s family.” This has something to do with vines and branches and fellowship with other believers. It would entail speaking the truth in love. Of course that would mean that you would have to rub shoulders with various ethnics . . . Jesus wouldn’t want his people to do that would he?

Purpose 3 is “You were created to become like Christ.” That has something to do with holiness and faith – trusting Jesus and becoming like him in word and deed. On the other hand you could be one of them thar carnal christians.

Purpose 4 is “You were shaped to for serving God.” I don’t know about a Purpose Driven Synagogues but it sure would be pleasing to God is he has a few more of his self-proclaimed children serving him.

Purpose 5 is “You were made for mission.” So what was the last time you stepped outside your door or outside of your comfort zone and proclaimed the gospel that “Jesus is Lord”?

Sounds like fundamental components of a church to me.

Remember when you rant on and on about Warren and his book that you need to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth . . . Otherwise you are telling the half-lie. And God who is in heaven will hold you to account for every word that you utter.

Don’t say you weren’t warned!

[Larry - KY]

May 21, 2007

This is not an issue of ‘my law is better than your law’, but where is true life and food to be found whereby true fruit comes and arises, because there is a way to invert that by way of life. It’s important to understand and grasp that it is not just about affirming by mouth faith alone, nor is it in our day and age right to “patch that up” with faith works. But rather how does living faith exists versus a dead faith that may indeed be working and doing and have a profession but is yet utterly dead and false. For the devil is ALWAYS taking reformulations of faith, even from the reformation, and sending us back by subtle redefinition to Rome and Babylon. And the devil will always most certainly use the Word of God wrongly.

It is as I told my wife this weekend. It’s not that most today deny articles of the faith per se among protestants, ideas within it, and words of ‘Christian’ language. I told her be aware that an entire false theology can consist of every single article confessed of the Christian faith but be upside down or reversed and then be the devil’s religion. It should be well noted that the OT church, the Jews, did this very thing…they were not ‘pagans’ seeking god but of God’s people “seeking” God, they had His Law and His Word, yet they didn’t even recognize their Messiah, much like the American protestant church today that does not by far and large recognize their Jesus anymore but another Jesus which is no Jesus at all. One could take every single article of the faith confessed, turn it upside down, and then have the opposing fallen religion yet be Christian sounding in every single word. It is as Jesus warned the exegetical experts of his day, “You search the scriptures and think that by them you have life, but it is these that continually bear witness to ME.” As Jesus said, “I am the way, the life and the truth” not “I show you the way, the life and the truth.” Be very aware of the devil’s subtly here when he inverts the truth so that it doesn’t seem “outside” the Christian faith or real faith. This is how he reverses true worship and true faith as a thing I “offer up” or done from “me” rather than Christ coming down to “give to me/us”. The Baal worshippers cut themselves, danced, sacrificed, sang and tried to ascend to do for God in heaven so that he would come down for them, and there was nothing but deathly silence from their dead alter for there is no such god that is God. Idols are created from a view of the God that is. Yet Ezekiel done everything in reverse, even soaking the altar with water, symbolic of reversing works to heaven and did nothing upward but rather showed the blood pointing to Christ alone at Calvary and then the fire of God came down and consumed the offering for God comes down in Whom He said He would come down through Jesus Christ and Him crucified. Was it Ezekiel’s “doing” that did it? No, not at all but it was showing forth Christ as coming down to us, just like the Lord’s Supper, that was it. Fundamentally the devil’s trick is the same, to reverse the direction of worship and the ‘loves’ so that the worshipper climb’s Jacob’s ladder rather than Christ coming down on Jacob’s latter. And this is how other gospels, other spirits and other christ’s work. And it is VERY notable that Paul uses those very terms OTHER gospels, spirits and christ’s to show that even though the names are used the direction of worship is altered from God to us to us to God and thus a false gospel, false spirit, false christ which are none of what they say they are. This is fundamentally Steven’s entire sermon in Acts chapter 7 and that to which David closes in Psalm 51 for which, in Stephen’s case, they gnashed their teeth at him and stoned him to death. “We don’t cut ourselves and dance as pagans do for Baal”, someone says, “we don’t worship Baal but God alone”. Yes, when we even in the Christian context try to ‘muster up’ from us to heaven worship and even call it Christ, Jesus, God it is really worshipping Baal because of the direction of worship and attempting to make God see and love us. Because the point is God that is - is the God comes TO us in human flesh, and when we build our worshiping Towers of Babel ascending into heaven we are not seeking the real God but in fact Baal, Satan and self, EVEN if we say it is the Christian God as we reverse the direction of worship. This is fundamental to Israel refusing her Messiah, they clearly had an idea of a Messiah but it was false, an idol, a Baal, self worship. Fundamentally, all forms of worship that “reach up” as it were to God deny God and deny the incarnation of Christ which is God Who came to us. It is the OLDEST trick in the Book of the devil and rooted in the first heresy from the beginning of the NT church.

All of these efforts and attempts of forms of worship to drive the emotions up to heaven so as to “move God”, “make Him hear us, or “make things happen”; taking emotional music to engender just the right emotive ‘worship’ upward, those earnest oomphs we try to push out of our souls and onto the words when we pray to ‘make the prayer’ fly and be heard, so to speak, as if to psychologically and spiritually make God see us and be in earnest toward God, those “I really mean it now” nuisances in our prayers and verbal accents on the words as if they adorn the prayer that God may better hear it, receive it and act upon it (our prayer tone works rather than suffering), those works we think we’ve done throughout the week even evangelism and especially the highest works – ALL of these and much much much more in which we reverse the direction of worship FUNDAMENTALLY are open confessions denying the incarnation of Jesus Christ to us. They deny that God came down to us at the very moment of conception and that God became man from start to finish to save us. The very actions of reversing worship and faith from heaven to earth to earth to heaven denies the incarnation and body of Jesus Christ. Jesus did not heal all the time nor do works of great healing, nor bring about peace on earth, but only did these in so much as it pointed to Him as savior Crucified and NOT as a bringer of great earthly healing and of life…Lazarus died again and is now dead in his grave! The lame man died a physical death. All that received their sight, healed from disease, that walked again, the little girl brought back to life died finally and their bodies are at this very moment in the earth. For His ministry was not service in this life but service unto salvation and eternal life. And after He was crucified it did not yield earthly peace but precipitated war.

So, if there is no justification by grace alone through faith alone in Jesus Christ alone, then there is no church visible neither by Word and especially by deed, period. It is this article that is the chief article of the church without which there is absolutely NO church nor other articles of the faith even if duties are performed. And we should be clear here, this article, justification, is not reduced to a “once in time” item or event that becomes a mere formality “signed off on” so as to get busy and back onto Rome working one’s way to heaven. Ask yourself, “Is Christ crucified for me a mere formality”. Then why do you profess so by your actions (James’ warning). The Cross of Christ is so shameful to our wicked eyes that we cannot stand to stay in it continuously and we think most sinfully that to move on to “bigger and better things” is what a “deeper walk with Christ is”. When in fact that is not at all a deeper walk with Christ but a fleeing from Him. A deeper walk into Christ is what it literally is, deeper into the Cross in all things, Christ crucified and risen for you. To be IN Christ is to NEVER in this life leave His blood FOR ME, not some Gnostic idea that says its “in” Christ by mere declaration of attaching it to the works being done as if to put lipstick on a pig and call it a beautiful woman. A confession that says, “I do these works in Christ or by grace”, is a devil’s confession. If justification is so reduced to a mere formality and not the life nor tension in which one’s soul lay, exists and walks in this life, then it is not the true article of faith nor true faith. Justification by faith alone is the continuum, as it where, the only continuum of walk, way and life that the Christian subsists within his/her entire life. Herein lay true humility and a suffering that is truly saving faith which sits in this tension of ‘simul Justus et peccator’ without seeing.

I don’t really like doing what I’m going to do next because it seems to be pointing to me when I should be pointing to Christ. However, if by its example something is made clearer then hopefully a view may be cleared to better see Christ afterward, a removing of the weeds of works so as to better see the Cross so to speak. Last week I like many had more sins than I could count in thought, word and deed. Now among them I will pick out two so as to clear the works weeds out. One, is a continued, like most men, struggle inwardly and by my mind with lust as I saw various women and bill board ads and any number of memories trying to rise up and play out in my minds eye. ALL men know EXACTLY what I mean here. Now, that sin is recognized by all as sin and we all know it, feel it, experience it and battle with it and this sin is EASILY confessed among men as sin whereby we pat each other on the back and say, “I know brother”. Comparatively it is a peccadillo, yet it is one so easily confessed among men. If I confess this sin as I discuss it here I would readily receive from many brothers an “amen”, “I hear you”, “I too” and so forth as misery loves company. But do you know what sin bothered me the most this week? This one did and does, but the worst one my bones could not keep silent about to confess to God more was not this one. It was a good deed done through me this week, and I knew it would happen. I even loath to confess it here as I still feel my pride unto it. I was an instrument of a very good deed to a needy person this week and I knew when I did it that it would tempt me WORSE than ANY woman’s body. At least the temptation of the woman would not hold me from grace for in its outward evil I flee to Christ, but this good deed, there lay a true viper and real deadly sin crouching and awaiting to devour me. Because in this good deed done I would and did seek to rob God his glory in thought, word and deed and would not flee to the Cross for its outward exercise is quite good. It vexed me more than all the “negative” sins that I had in thought, word and deed the WHOLE week. Herein we see MOST clearly the sin nature, that is by good deeds sin really and most truly reveals itself for what it is, the robber of God as God His glory and the deification of man to be like God. Blessed is the man who God lets NEVER see good deeds in his life or as Jesus said, “Blessed are the poor in spirit”, for they stay on and in Christ truly as they are dead to the Law and alive to Christ alone.

Many blab, huff and puff about “being IN Christ” and doing their ‘good works’ and “doing them by faith” and by so called “grace”, but these same many are greatly deceived by their own hearts and have not yet actually heard the holy Law nor the real Gospel. They’ve only heard the external workings of ‘doing the Law’ and still live by the Law, they are not dead to their first husband and alive to Christ. They don’t really hear the Law at all for if they did they would tremble in shear terror as all of God’s saints have done throughout the history of the church and Scriptures seeing their (our) sinful hearts at the very root. Then they would hunger and thirst as the Law has evacuated them to the desert like post-Sinai after an alien righteousness that is not their own - that is to say hunger and thirst after Christ alone for them whereby He feeds us His Gospel in Word, baptism, bread and wine, and is the fountain of living water and manna from heaven.

Many think they understand what faith is but they do not, they think it consists in doing, a mobster’s faith that “proves itself” before the boss. They do not grasp that faith is purely passive and receives from God and from this status of true humility fruit arises. A faith that works or actively tries to prove itself even by saying “in Christ or by grace I do this”, is, ironically, the branch separated from Christ. Only the one staying in Christ alone, in hope of salvation by Christ constantly, is actually IN Christ, that’s what IN Christ means, remaining IN that naked, passive, suffering tension of a faith that is trust in Christ alone without righteousness in and about me. A faith that “proves itself” is false faith, a faith that beholds Christ alone FOR ME is the only true faith. Today it is one thing to say “I believe in” quite another to say “I trust in” and still yet another to live in that “trust alone”. The greatest question today is not to ask, “What do you believe in”, but rather, “What do you trust in”. When suffering comes, or maybe not even until your death bed, when you lay there and the law is upon you, and you are dying perhaps of heart disease, or wracked with cancer, or some other means of death, what then will your TRUST, not your belief, be in? How comforting a warm blanket will your ENTIRE life of works be to you then when the devil ever the lawyer comes and lays the real LAW out before your very eyes. I’d say you’d better be a beggar or heaven will not be yours at all.

Faith is not understood because sin is TRULY not understood by far and large today. The root of sin is not deeds done evil or good, but the inward curving of a man such that a good deed by action outwardly, especially a religious one, especially one labeled as Christian per se - is pure evil as man does it for his own salvation, assurance, sanctification or otherwise toward God for self. This is why Jesus could say that the prostitutes and tax collectors would see the kingdom of heaven and enter it before the Pharisees and religious. Nothing holds and blinds a man infinitely from free grace (a redundant set of terms) so much as his perceived good works and trying to stop his sins even if he says by the “energy” of grace which is no grace at all.

True grace comes NOT by some favored hour or moment in which God by some kind of energy or constraining love subdues more and more your sins to give you rest. Rather, TRUE grace comes when by God’s hand He aggravates your sin and woes and destroys your fine intents, killing you and giving you your cross unto Christ’s Cross, so that by these inward and external trials and sufferings you are laid low, dead and wasted from your very otherwise hidden pride and self. And thereby God sets free by killing so that you see and have Christ alone FOR YOU and live. But that grace is painful, passive and suffering as opposed to the false grace of subduing sin and getting better and better. THAT grace really subdues the hidden sin, the good sins of good deeds.

Sin is NOT just the outward evil deeds done, like say the adultery the woman was accused of before Jesus by the Jews. The theologian of glory is BLINDED by this because they think that very passage is mainly about her adultery, the openly “negative sins” or the hidden adultery of the hearts of the men around her, focusing upon the negative only. But, true sin is man moving from his created being as a man and trying to be more and what he is not, namely God (the result of inward curving) and very pious in thought, word and deed. And this sin reverses the love’s (again the upside down inverting) , the Law of God, the root of ALL evil in spite of outward appearances good or bad. So, they don’t grasp that it is about SIN altogether, that inward curving, that anti-love. Because true Love, godly love, which is the Law, does not seek itself – even and especially in trying to “not seek itself” or “doing” so as to draw attention to itself nor to improve or prove itself to God. So that not only is say adultery sin which is manifestly and openly inwardly curving and not loving of the neighbor (the REAL LAW), but that those standing around her that having NEVER committed adultery and in fact remained faithful are ONLY doing it for selfish pride, their assurance as proof of their being in the kingdom, their sanctification. There IS in fact a devil’s sanctification that disguises itself as “Christian” sanctification. Because the ToG doesn’t get, as all of fallen men by nature don’t get it, that sin is not good or bad deeds outwardly done, but doing things selfishly for the self, especially the BEST of deeds done and performed before God. And that to do a “good” churchy deed, even saving a life, to say assure one’s self of one’s “conversion”, a proof that I’m saved, or sanctifying one’s self IS THE DEEPEST SIN OF ALL, the deadly sin that kills eternally and the one that most deceives us holding us from true Grace and this “good deed” is totally and entirely outside of Christ even if we say, “we do it by grace or in Christ”.

The fallen religion under ANY name doesn’t grasp that the Law is love and love that is real LOVE does not seek itself AT ALL…AT ALL! Furthermore, fallen man, even in the church, doesn’t grasp that ANYTHING done for self is against the Law even and especially the highest of religious aspirations and deeds performed. EVEN done to and especially if done to assure myself of salvation, hope of heaven, to give an ‘good answer’ before God for my words or sanctification - even if I attempt to save the lives and souls of billions. Man commits his greatest sin during his most positive of works by robbing God His glory and MOST deceives himself but yet thinks he is doing good in the sight of God and other men, and so he professes and presents himself rather than Christ crucified. They don’t take literally what Jesus says when he says after you do all that you do confess you are an utterly profitless and worthless servant. Why? Because they are blinded by the glory works. Biblically, the man who IS truly being sanctified, is the man not beholding or trying for his sanctification. If one IS in the STATE of trusting and resting singularly and nakedly in Christ alone, passive, suffering faith, that is in spite of myself and doing, then sanctification is already had and working by way of justification. Yet, if you are trying to sanctify yourself, you are outside of Christ altogether even if you profess “by grace and in Christ”. The “renewing of your mind” in Romans 12 is a move to Christ alone and away from a world and religion with you/me at its center…and that means not trying to try to move yourself from the center which is merely an intensified version of “me/you at the center” of our Baal religion called “Christian” religion. By trying to NOT be the center of all things, you are nothing but BEING INTENSELY the center of all things to yourself. It’s like “trying to be humble”, in doing so you are anything but humble and in fact GREATLY arrogant and full of pride. Because the fallen self loves and beholds works that adorn it all the better like a whore with makeup to draw the eyes of men and even God to itself, even saying, “I do them by grace, now”

We should be aware of the way our souls and heart attempt to work their way to heaven and does not understand true good works nor true faith when we invert EVERYTHING and thus produced a false religion by the name and doctrines of the true religion. Such, for example, do not see why a good work are giving a cup of cold water, sweeping the floor, planting a seed, taking the trash out, changing the babies diaper, sleeping, eating and breathing air – doing all things in life as God brings life to you without trying to “do good works”, this is to love God and neighbor as you trust in Christ alone and they are done BOLDLY and can ONLY be done so resting in true faith/trust in Christ alone. Only one trusting in Christ alone so rests and does all things. But the purveyors of fallen religion only behold the best of works with the most attention getting and glorious ones. They show up, like Hollywood, at big camera disasters like Katrina (which in and of itself is not bad, but the sin natures procurement of it is eternal death), which are fleeting and temporary and something that can be “gotten through”. But they hardly have the patience for the dreary 365 days a year tedious inglorious work of caring for the elderly, the raising of a child, the care for a home or some other lesser viewed work. They are more like Hollywood than Christian - only there when the big ticket items are there to do and be observed by the eyes of men, and then they regale these wondrous works stories from their false pulpits showing their glory in them over the mundane and tedium of everyday life, the mother laboring to maintain a home for her children, washing clothes, dishes and preparing food. A great missionary ONLY is their hero as their pulpits proudly regale, while they hardly give the Christian garbage man collecting their garbage the time of day who is in fact loving them as a neighbor (the garbage man) in his everyday calling by GOD HIMSELF, EVERY SINGLE DAY and not just when the cameras are there or the eyes of men are upon them! Why? Again, they glory in works, the garbage man is just so so. They hardly notice Joseph in the bible as an example while they make David, Abraham or Paul the example to follow (and these three would not do that), again following after works. Yet, it was Joseph who held in his very arms the Lord of Glory, changed His diaper, spoke to him as an earthly parent, gave him comfort as a child, worked to feed, cloth and shelter Him as a child and taught Him a simple trade as a carpenter. Why? Again, they glory in the big ticket items as only works glorification can and will do. As such they enumerate good works, proving they are attempting, very hidden to their wicked hearts, to work their way to heaven, that’s why they can enumerate works (this and that is a good work and that over there is secular, less great and not churchy enough) - yet they profess ‘faith alone’ and ironically know absolutely NOTHING about THE faith that saves nor true fruits that ALONE come from that faith they know NOTHING about.

They do not grasp that the ENTIRE 10 commandments is doing some of the things I just said, the simple mundane loving of the neighbor. They absolutely LOOSE sight that God the Father said of Jesus that IN HIM He is well pleased and Christ fulfilled all righteousness…of which we most assuredly derive - the theologian of Cross sees this and calls a thing what it is - that Jesus did this in ALL He did. Trusting NAKEDLY in CHRIST ALONE IS to be IN CHRIST and nothing else. Therefore, Jesus ate and glorified His Father in heaven and the Father was well pleased with His eating. Jesus slept and glorified His Father in heaven and the Father was well pleased with His sleeping. Jesus breathed air and was simply human in that nature in all ways, for He knew no sin though like us in everyway even in the infirmities that result from the fall and yet fulfilled ALL righteousness and glorified His Father in heaven and the Father was well pleased with His breathing and being of the human nature, and many many many other “living his life” things. For Jesus did not sin and Jesus lived His life and His calling perfectly which included all the “living of life”, eating, drinking, sleeping, working, big and small. And IN Him, that is faith/trust alone, we likewise are pleasing to the Father in heaven when we are all these things, that IS in Him, to sin no more. And THUS IN HIM our answer for idol words, thoughts and deeds will be CHRIST ALONE which answers for every idol word, thought and deed to the chagrin of fallen religion which will attempt vainly to answer by its works. The KIND of tree is what produces the good fruit and NOT the trying to produce the kind of fruit that makes the tree. Thus, Jesus says that fig trees cannot produce thorns and thorn trees cannot produce figs. He was NOT saying, “produce figs to show you are a fig tree, else you are a thorn tree”. Which in fact would have been producing more thorns, that is trying to produce figs (inward turning), ironically, thorns is all you can produce. Why? Because the kind of tree is what is in view here, not the works or fruits thereof. Similarly, TRYING to produce good works for one’s assurance or sanctification, one is producing NOTHING but sin, thorns and thus a thorn tree. While reposing in Christ alone nakedly, all that one does is good works. A fish is a fish that swims, it is not a fish because it swims. A bird may try to swim, but it is not a fish and trying to do so does not make it a fish.

Unfortunately protestants today have returned to Rome and don’t even know it. They do not grasp that one NEVER leaves “justification by faith alone” and that JBFA is NOT a mere one time formality to re-enter upon the works treadmill. Rome never even had to ‘fire a shot’.

Blessings,

Larry

[Matt]

Bread Maker:

The purposes Warren lists are good things—they really are! But are they anything resembling a biblical definition of church? That is, if these things are not present, is an assembly of believers no longer a church?

1. "You were planned for God's pleasure." It is most certainly true that we want to please God. However, our status as either Church or Christian does not depend on whether we do or not… probably a good thing, given that whole "sin" thing and our inbred penchant for DISpleasing God.

2. "You were formed for God's family." It is most certainly true that we were created for community…since the beginning it was not good for Adam to be alone. The church IS a family, with all the accoutrements that go along with it (including discipline!).

3. "You were created to become like Christ." It is most certainly true that we strive to become like Christ through the power of the Holy Spirit. However, as long as we're in these corrupted bodies ("carnal Christians?"), we won't be able to be completely like Christ. (Check out Romans 7—yes, Paul IS writing in the present tense for a reason!) So, kinda like #1, if our status as Christian or Church depended on fulfilling this purpose to become like Christ, we're gonna fail miserably, and the Church on earth is already dead.

4. "You were shaped for serving God." Ditto #1 and #3.

5. "You were made for mission." When's the last time you stepped outside of your comfort zone and proclaimed that someone needed to repent of their sins daily and that the Good News was not simply that "Jesus is Lord", but that that Lord was crucified for those sins and rose again, conquering the consequences of those sins? Again, we were made for mission, but our identity as Christians and Church does not rely on that.

So what DO we know about the church as described in the Bible? First, it is built by and on Christ (Mt 16.18). It is a flock "obtained with his own blood" (Acts 20.28). It is those "sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints together with all those who in every place call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Cor 1.2).

Second, it walks "in the fear of the Lord and in the comfort of the Holy Spirit" (Acts 9.31). A church may not do much in outward service and still be called the Church (Phi 4.15, Rev 3-4). It may not be fulfilling its purpose, but should still be exhorted to do so.
On earth, it is possible for the true Church to have divisions, and such divisions are even necessary to recognize genuine Christians (1 Cor 11.18). However, even with such divisions, Christ is the head over all things to his body, the church (Eph 1.22-23).

Through the church, "the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly places… according to the eternal purpose that he has realized in CHRIST JESUS OUR LORD" (Eph 3.10) That is, God's purpose is fulfilled in Christ, not us—we are merely instruments.

The first problem with defining the Church by the 5 Purposes is the assumption that we CAN fulfill them—remember, God asks for no less than perfection.

The second problem is that it mixes up the primary definition of the Church (the body of believers with whom God has restored his relationship) with its role in the world. The church IS supposed to help widows, feed the poor, and so forth, but its identity is not wrapped up in what IT does. Its identity is in God's calling.

So while the 5 Purposes may be components of a church, they are not ESSENTIAL components without which it is no longer a church. Take away the preaching of Christ crucified, and then you might start talking about whether or not a church is really a part of the Church.

[Jim]

Oh wait a minute,let's not forget this one...

"...churches will need to help people understand that being a fully devoted follower of Jesus means involvement in P.E.A.C.E."

http://www.purposedriven.com/en-US/PEACE/10_ways_to_introduce_PEACE.htm

Thanks Chris for all your good work

Jim

[Connie]

"...churches will need to help people understand that being a fully devoted follower of Jesus means involvement in P.E.A.C.E."

That man has some audacity, doesn't he?! It wouldn't surprise me if he decided to write a book in which he redefines God's word in it's entirety. He needs our prayers.

[Jeff Moulton]

Dude - do you pay attention in church? YOU GO TO A PURPOSE DRIVEN CHURCH!

Plus, math apparently was not your strong suit. Look up Venn Diagram. That would be more useful. Or, do you remember your ACT/SAT?

[Craig]

Chris,
Your fixation on Rick seems to be falling on deaf ears. Why? Because if you attend the services and listen to Rick speak you will not hear him tell anyone that if they don't read his book or follow his plan then they are not a church or a christian. He is preaching out of the Bible about relevant topics, using scripture to support each point. What are all of you antagonists concerned about? Your rhetoric is not loving or factual but venomous. If you ask someone who has become a Christian through Saddleback I'm sure you will hear that they repented and asked Jesus into their heart (don't argue whether we have the ability to accept or is it a gift because then we truely do have a theological debate). If you look up what Saddleback believes as a church you will see things like this: "ABOUT MAN
Man is made in the spiritual image of God, to be like Him in character. He is the supreme object of God´s creation. Although man has tremendous potential for good, he is marred by an attitude of disobedience toward God called "sin". This attitude separates man from God.
Genesis 1:27; Psalm 8:3-6; Isaiah 53:6a; Romans 3:23; Isaiah 59:1,2"
Saddleback is firmly grounded but we are hardly a legalistic church. If that is for you then fine, but why must you attack those that aren't. Is Rick a little short on "Sin"...sure, but there is enough that gives everyone chosen the opportunity to repent of their sins.

[lc]

Chris, I re-read your post and am still trying to find the part where you attacked RW or his congregation. I find it convienent that as you were being chastised as "dude", those opposed to your post neglect to explain how RW knows the future better than Jesus. And they neglect to quote the verse that would affirm the possibility that RW's global peace plan is what will "wipe out the big 5". If a member of saddleback knows what RW's goals are and they claim that RW follows sound doctrine, then they are reading a different gospel than I do. Benny Hinn is no different. He has many poor souls who are willing to blind themselves to his brand of defying Jesus, by his outrageous claim that our Lord will appear on stage with him during one of his crusades(charades). RW is just another that Jesus warned about. How it has to grieve Jesus to see such charasmatic leaders defile what HE taught, for us to be forewarned in the end days. Itching ears won't put up with true doctrine, but how they love false promises and claims. Just so long as it's in the name of our Lord, they believe it because it appeals to their sense of what's good.

[Lou Martuneac]

Chris:

Your piece irrefutably identifies the extreme ecumenical compromise of Rick Warren (RW) and Purpose Drive (PD).

I have been dealing with this issue in recent weeks at Sharper Iron and at my site. RW & PD apologists are doing al, they can to distance RW from any connection to the forging ties with denominations such as the Roman Catholic Church.

The quotes from Rick Warren and Mark Kelly make clear that Saddleback’s PD organization, under Warren’s direction, is seeking to formalize ties with apostate and doctrinally bankrupt denominations of all sorts.

Thanks for posting this important contribution and exposure of Saddleback’s unscriptural methods.

LM