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Rita

I think it is good that we are warned of these false prophets, because when I converted in october 2005 a friend gave me as a present The Purpose Driven Life which I found was an ok book but I didn't really finish reading it, but imagine me a baby christian with 0 knowledge of what the Word of God truly says was being mislead by his book. So it is good that we are warned.

My question is do the REAL christian leaders talk to these misleading "christian leaders" first before writing any article???

Drew

Hey - have you seen this youtube video? Goes back to an earlier blog entry of yours...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUb8DuArgnw

lc

Chris, You, with RW's unwitting help, post a clear picture of how to discern truth with scripture. God laughs indeed. God has a sense of humor( Iv'e heard that quote of that comically nosed animal before,who said it?). God laughs today as then, and it should scare any believer into repentance. You have a far reaching blog. And it would be so wonderful to know that you finally reached one of the mega preachers into measuring themselves with pure scripture. Keep going, perhaps God's purpose for you is to evangelize the purpose driven preacher. My own conversion had some humorous ironies, that made it possible for me to know that I can't be good without Jesus' intercession. RW seeing himself through your eyes would be God's sense of humor. We can pray and hope RW repents and denounces with the same enthusiasim his purpose driven ways.

Lou Martuneac

Thanks for the research and documentation of yet another example of Rick Warren's abuse of the Bible.

He will twist the Scriptures to suit his pragmatic needs.

Shameless plug here: I have done only a little work on Rick Warren and the Purpose Driven philosophy. I am going to provide a link to my site.

There are three brief articles that expose many of the egregious errors in the philosophy and methods of Rick Warren.

http://indefenseofthegospel.blogspot.com/search/label/Rick%20Warren

Kind regards,


LM

FFF

You have never heard of Jack Hyles or Jack Schaap, have you? Rick Warren is far less "dangerous" then the two mentioned above.

Lou Martuneac

Hyles & Schaap have their issues, but it is not a comparison contest. Warren routinely abuses the Scriptures and his egregious errors go much deeper.

Go to my site and read about it.

http://indefenseofthegospel.blogspot.com/search/label/Rick%20Warren


LM

CBA

Good Day,

We’re writing to you from the Christian Blog Awards, the first UK award ceremony designed to celebrate Christian websites and blogs. We’ve noticed your site and think you’d be perfect to enter.

To check the rules of entry or find out about prizes and the awards ceremony on the 21st September, check out site, www.christianblogawards.com or to enter your site straight away, email christianblogawards@premier.org.uk

We hope to hear from you soon!

CBA

Good Day,

We’re writing to you from the Christian Blog Awards, the first UK award ceremony designed to celebrate Christian websites and blogs. We’ve noticed your site and think you’d be perfect to enter.

To check the rules of entry or find out about prizes and the awards ceremony on the 21st September, check out site, www.christianblogawards.com or to enter your site straight away, email christianblogawards@premier.org.uk

We hope to hear from you soon!

Jenn

Sometimes I think he types a keyword into his computer concordance (like "Laugh") and then picks the verse he likes the most. I can't imagine someone picking that verse for such an example unless they'd not bothered reading the context of the verse (although if he was using "The Message" maybe it is twisted around in there!)
Love your blog! Listen to you on Issues Etc... frequently!
Blessings in Christ
Jenn

Lygia

I was really angry when I read that article by Warren . Just to think that he can treat such a deep subject such as this out of context and in such a light way.I'm sure he didn't read the context, since it is so easy to see the kind of laugh implied here. Unbelievable.I can see new Christians everywhere falling for this kind of thing and non Christians loving such a light, positive message. However, this is a terrifying message to the nations and people who are trying to get rid of Jesus Christ and if it was treated as it should it would have told people that God won't let it go on forever. How different this message is of what Warren preached using the text. Shame on him.

Shane Vander Hart

As always - context is king.

jimmy@relevantchristian

Chris,

Don't pass out or nothing...but I agree with you here.
RW is really starting to concern me.

Peace!

J. K. Jones

Good post.

Warren does have the annoying habit of quoting whichever paraphrase of the Bible agrees with the point he wants to make.

Hunter

While what you say might be true, don't you think that a MUCH better use of your time would be reaching out to those who are lost? My guess is that you spend dozens of hours each week on this blog, and other mediums, bashing Warren and others. But how much time are you spending witnessing to your neighbors/co-workers who need Jesus?

Last I checked, Jesus said that we are to first and foremost, Love Him with all we've got. Second, we are to love our neighbors as ourselves. Nowhere in this list did i read, "and criticize one another in Jesus' name!"

Just some thoughts.

Steve Newell

Hunter,

The Great Commission includes the command of teaching and instruction as part of being a Christian. If someone is providing false teaching, it is the responsibility of the Christian is to correct that wrong teaching. We see it when Paul confronted Peter or in various letters Paul wrote.

If you love the Lord, you will want to make sure that what you teach is correct and that you stand up against wrong doctrine.

Wrong teaching is dangerous in that it can replace the Gospel of Christ with another teaching which does not lead to salvation, but even the individual in their current condition of eternal separation from God.

Kelly

What Steve said.

Isn't it great when random bloggers assume that they know how much time you spend NOT witnessing to others about Christ? And isn't it great when "love" means "pretending that false teaching or sin isn't there"? This is where Rick Warrenism leads.

Janine

Hunter,
Contending for the truth is one of key jobs as Christians.

Also, Warren and others have presented wishy-washy 'salvation' prayers that very well may lead to millions being damned when they think they are saved.

He needs to be called on the garbage he is putting out - and frequently.

Mike

I have been reading your blog for several months. I really enjoy it and I think that your theology is spot on. However, that being said, I think that your personal crusade against Warren is not appropriate.

Warren presents wishy washy theology sometimes, but he also reaches many people with the message of Christ. I think that your time could be much better spent attacking something of real consequence rather than someone who is technically fighting against Satan with you.

I enjoyed your treatment of the "Lost Tomb of Christ" which was a direct attempt by the secular media to undermine Christian doctrine. I am just not sure that Warren's "theology" should even be a blip on your radar when it comes to "...make a defense to anyone who asks for a reason for the hope that is in you..." I just think your obvious discernment and wisdom are better suited for more important battles.

Thanks for all you do.

Adam

interesting...write more!

Truman

mike - I hear what you're saying, and mostly agree, but what does it mean when someone is "technically fighting Satan"? Is that someone who is with you some of the time, but not always? Someone who is with you emotionally but not doctrinally?

The problem with the "technically we're all on the same team" mentality is that when the stuff Warren preaches is let go unchallenged, error takes place of truth.

Warren may be an instrument in leading people to Christ, but what Christ are they getting? That's the whole point of Chris' constant critique of Warren--for which I am grateful.

Mike Toole

Adam, I see where you are coming from, and the reason I said technically is because I don't actually know what Warren's holds as theology. I have read a couple of his books and agreed with some of his ideas and disagreed with others. However, one thing that he was very clear about was the message of Christ's saving grace. He is very clear about that fact.

And really that's what is important. We can argue over lots of different theological ideas, but if someone preaches, "Jesus of Nazareth IS the ONE TRUE God in human flesh and that He died for the sins of the world, rose victorious from the grave and is coming again to judge both the living and the dead." I think we are fighting for the same side.

I guess I would just rather talk about answering arguments about creation vs. evolution or how to combat the slow creep of gnostic mysticism into our culture.

Just my two cents.

-MIke

Michael Toole

Opps, I guess was actually replying to Truman... sorry

-Mike

Kelly

It's funny, but precisely the point where I find Warren to be unclear is the message of Christ's saving grace.

I would hazard a guess that the reason we'd rather talk about creation/evolution or gnostic mysticism (both worthy topics of concern), as Christians, is that it allows us to be more "us vs. them" as believers against the world. It's much harder to try to actually root out false doctrine that has infiltrated our midst, and we're more likely to step on the toes of those we care more about. But as Paul says in 1 Corinthians 5... "What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside." And in chapter 11: "But if we judged ourselves, we would not come under judgment." Yes, this internal discipline thing is much more difficult to do. It requires a community of people who love, forgive, and occasionally confront each other, rather than a community of people who seem oblivious to sin in their own midst, but point the finger at the ungodliness of the world and wonder why unbelievers think of Christians as self-righteous.

Mike Toole

I think I would disagree with you Kelly.

The reason I would rather study the two examples I mentioned is summed up in 1 Peter chapter 3..."but in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect..."

I guess where I am, I run into more people with arguments against Biblical creation and questions about New Age Mysticism, so these topics are more relevant for me. I never have to answer questions about Rick Warren and perhaps this gives me a different perspective on what I find to be important.

It is definately not an "us vs. them" mentality because that is the wrong attitude. Everybody needs Jesus' saving grace, not just "us".

And I guess that's why I feel that Rick Warren isn't a proper focus for attacks. Is Rick Warren perfect? Nope. He makes mistakes like all of us. Does he need advice from his Christian brothers? Absolutely. Does he deserve to be demonized? I don't think so. I think he deserves to be corrected with gentleness and respect.

-Mike

Kelly

A defense for the hope that is within us, given to unbelievers, is different thing from either arguing about creation vs. evolution or discussing the bad theology of Rick Warren.

Oh, the semantics: Does church discipline and being discerning and outspoken about bad doctrine equal "attacks" and "demonization" now? You see, we just can't handle dealing with stuff inside the church. That's just why it's important to deal with; it's invisible, and Christians put up high defenses around their favorite superstar personality, no matter what the nonsense is that they teach. All in the name of "We're all Christians, so it's unloving for you to address this-- let's look to the heathen instead!" It makes it all the more insidious in our midst.

Mike Toole

Well, Kelly, I can see that our views of the various quoted scriptures are very different, and we are probably not going to come to an agreement on this. Thanks for the discussion.

-Mike

lc

Mike, You and Kelly both correctly quoted scripture. However, it's Kelly's understanding that I agree with. God doesn't need us to preserve or defend His word. God doesn't need us to pray for our needs. But He is clear that we need to do certain things to remain true in Him. It is for our good, not God's, that we follow God's instructions. And exposing false teachers and doctrines is one of those instructions. Praying is another. And to let RW and his many followers see the unbiblical doctrines they espouse, just might save them from hearing, " Go away, I never knew you ". And what of the unbelievers? If all doctrine claiming Jesus were considered true, then every church would be ok. And there is churches that believe in Jesus as our only salvation, that also believe in evolution. Westcott and Hort helped to promote that Genesis never happened, that it is just allegory. I do not believe any church that mixes man's doctrine with God's. RW is not bashed here, just exposed. I find it harder to convince someone that RW teaches false doctrine,than convincing someone that evolution is a badly constructed scientific theory. RW claims Jesus is Saviour. But his Jesus is not the same Jesus in the Bible. It's a jesus that fits into RW's theology.

lc

Mike, as a sidebar, if you don't have to answer questions about RW where you're at, then I'm pretty sure you don't live in northern Indiana...Big RW following there. Ohio too.

Mike Toole

Figured I would answer these posts...even though I wasn't going to continue a discussion that seemed to be going in circles.

I am amazed at the characterization's of Warren's ministry, when if you go to his web site, or read his interviews, his stance on Christ is very clear.

Anyone who says otherwise is not being very honest with themselves. Put aside your biases and just read. The message of Christ is clear. The message of helping others is clear. Those are messages that are very appropriate and Biblical.

Keeping doctrine "pure" is important, to a point. If it draws our focus away from evangelism, worship and spiritual growth then it is just as inappropriate as anything else that we focus on instead of Christ.

Doctrinal purity does not equal focusing on Christ. It focuses on man's interpretation of the Bible. It also focuses on "reforming" those who hold doctrines that are different than ours.

The primary fundamental doctrine of the Lutheran chruch can be summed up in John 3:16. The rest is secondary.

If we continue to focus on doctrinal purity as opposed to telling people what we believe, we will definately have preserved or shining city on a hill...and no one but us will be there when we finally reach it...

Steve Newell

Mike:

You are making the classic liberal argument that doctrinal purity cannot be maintained when proclaiming the Gospel. This is a false assumption.

In the Great Commission, Christ told us to do both. Without doctrinal purity, we are not proclaim Christ but our version of Christ.

When one is willing to give up any truth of the faith as a means to "tell others" what is then being proclaimed? If we cannot get the message and teaching of the Faith correct, then we can to proclaim and doing what Christ commanded us to do correctly?

St. Paul never changed the teachings of the Faith in order to proclaim the Gospel. He was willing to let the Gospel be an offense to others.

Sype

Have a listen to this 2 minute soundbite from a Rick Warren podcast -
http://theologybites.blogspot.com/2007/08/pragmatism-defined.html

I think it really gives reason to be concerned.

lc

Mike, I am truly sorry you think the disagreement of RW is a conversation that only goes in circles. Anyone (not just RW) can get part of the message of Christ clear. That isn't a problem. It's when any "new", or distorted message is added or doctrines of choice are thrown out, that makes a diluted and polluted message of Christ. And the closer to truth a polluted message is, the harder it is to discern. I have read RW's website,his global peace plan and completed the 40 days pdl with my church. We as a church finally realized RW's first sentence was the first lie pdl offered up. The "it's not about you" turned into a new age,self help,self esteem book,badly disguised as what Jesus wants us to think and do." Many mega preachers just read, All Scripture is good..." But that sentence in the Bible doesn't stop there, therefore it doesn't just approve itself for it's own sake. It tells us "WHAT" it's good for. And since All Scripture,( both testaments), point to Christ, then all doctrine must be pure and IN IT'S FULLNESS, so that we don't lose Christ in our tendency to backslide. And my gosh, how many examples of backsliding given in Scripture does it take for us to understand we can be just as seduced as those who were before us. It would make us more guilty in our own sin of backsliding. We were given the warnings and pitsfalls to avoid, if we just read the Bible and believe it over our own desires to "call the shots" on what's good. God bless you Mike, I think you are a thoughtful, peaceful person, and truly hope that you will see what God wants you to see. And there is no sarcasm there, God has something for each of us here to do. We each have to determine "is this what I want or what God wants?" And I do know it's a different knowing and feeling "when" I get it right. I hope the same happens for you. If you're sure that what you think of doctrine is correct,then there isn't anything any of us can say more about, I guess.

lc

Oh Sype! Thank you for that post. "Concern" is putting it mildly. Even the so called good points were out of context with scripture. RW took Jesus' words "so you can have life" and turned into, He was just talking about life. Uh, the life Jesus talked about, in that verse, has nothing to do with our having life in our present state. RW changed the context of eternal life and made it something RW needed to do for the rest of his message to seamlessly flow into a reason to NOT preach the message of the cross. And even with that he had to exaggerate his explanations to make it appear...preaching salvation,good...preaching repentance,bad. What an example for his pastor following to pass on to congregations. That was a dead on example of distortion Sype, thanks again.

Mike Toole

Thank you for both your posts. And Ic, I did not read any sarcasm in your post, just thoughtful words. Again thanks.

-Mike

JG

Chris, is the blog dead? Just curious, hadn't seen a post in a while.

JG

lc

Mike, Your thanks was a boost for me. It can be so hard to come across lovingly when beliefs clash. And on the internet I have seen and been part of such .misunderstandings. And I'm grateful that you know my conversation is in christian love and concern. Since everyone will stand in judgement the same, there's going to be many wrong thinkers. We can't all be right. Which is why I pray for others as earnestly as for myself to know the truth. I know God gives us each opportunities to believe God and to know His truth over ours. I don't want to be in the "vain imaginings" line. But I can't guarantee that I won't be. I only know what I'm sure God has put in my heart and it lines up with what I read in scripture. So that is why I continually pray for God to correct me and my brothers and sisters before we spiral down too far into our own ideas. And again, I'm really glad you understand, though we disagree about RW, that I love you. My brother in Christ. You really brightened my day!

JT

Matt 7:1-5

7 "Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. 3 And why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me remove the speck from your eye'; and look, a plank is in your own eye? 5 Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.
NKJV

Roger

Rick Warren’s gospel is good news for his seeker friendly Harry and Mary looking for and getting feel good ego positive experiences at market-driven assemblies and bad news for the children of God who got kicked out of their churches and ridiculed as leaders from hell.

The Bible’s gospel is bad news for the unregenerate Harry and Mary and good news for the children of God who confessed to be sinners coming short of the glory of God, repented of their sins and believe with all their hearts on Jesus Christ as their crucified, buried, and risen Lord and Savior.

Kenny

Why not write a revealing writing on "Worship" and the difference between it and "Praise". They are not even close, yet every week, people go to church and sing songs, have song service, and have so called "worship leaders" leading the PRAISE service, yet, none of those things are scriptural for Worship.

Worship is death to self. Abrahams desire, Christs desire, etc.

Worship is death to self (Deny yourself pick up your cross and follow me).

The church praises, but has NOT entered into Worship, and the leaders including Rick Warren, have not taught it, and have substituted PRAISE for Worship.

DO a study.. your eyes might find TRUTH my friends

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