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Mike Ratliff

Awesome post Chris! Thanks for those passages as well.

I find it interesting that these folks believe it is all about numbers when Jesus told His disciples and us to "MAKE DISCIPLES" not make big churches. Discipleship is far more important because it is God's will that be be sanctified. It is genuine Disciples who make other Disciples. :-)

In Christ

Mike Ratliff


How do you "do evangelism" without the Bible!?


Quote: "How do you "do evangelism" without the Bible!?"

When it's all about being entertained, the Bible isn't needed...

Good post!! Thanks for all you do, Chris!

Steve Newell

What we have here is classic Christian liberalism "Deeds not Creeds". This was first developed in the Unitarian Church of the early 1800's, found its was to mainline church bodies in the late 1800's and early 1900's and is now part of "conservative", "evangelical" churches today.

Jim from Old Truth

Excellent coverage of one of the most biblically destructive mindsets that I've seen in the megachurches.

BTW: I don't know how you got your audio quality that good, I really struggled with that on his clips.

Keep up the great work!


This young man is very arrogant, puffed-up, and full of pride.

Who's he trying to be, Pastor Jack Bauer?

God gave us His Word, and it's 66 books that we should love, really, and read it, study it, and meditate upon it.
This guy says that's foolishness.
Surely there is the side of simply having knowledge with out love, and that's bad.
But the Lord says, "My people perish for a lack of knoledge."

Satan hates the Bible, and he's very deceptive, and he is subtly pushing the Bible out of the Church.

Very sad.

Great post BTW. Keep on.


The next step to removing God's Word from the church will be what always follows in such cases : A cult.


He, video guy, is the silliest person I have heard in a long time...at least a day or two. Why use the Scriptures he did use to make any of his points if Scripture isn't needed to teach anyone? Why not stuff people's faces with simple, grade school outlines on how to get busy for Jesus. Oh, wait! How do you get busy for Jesus if you don't know what it is He wants you to do in the correct way? That could prove to be very complicated not at all grade school outline sort of stuff. Maybe they just go on what their hearts tell them to do. That's got to be it! Go with your heart...it never leads you astray...usually...well, most of the time...ok, it always does but whose counting?! We have enough work counting those we save we certainly can't count how many times our hearts betray us! Lighten up, dude, and quit stuffing your face with God's Word which only renews your mind! I'm usually not this mean, but my husband is gone and I have to take my frustrations out on someone....wait I don't have a husband...what were we talking about again? Oh, that's right how we are getting busy for Jesus doing something or another. Boy, I'm tired I better get some z's and try this getting busy for Jesus tomorrow...there's always tomorrow.


Oh brother... Give me a break. I've attended this chuch and there ARE bible studies...something you may have heard of called a small group? And how DO you evangelize without DOING something? We're involved with several ministries in the city on a very consistent basis to REACH the lost and needy here.

And sorry, as he says, if you don't like going to church with a lot of people who are hungry for God and his word, you're not going to like heaven...


Thank you Sarah.
Lord bless.


Ruth, I have not attended your church and my comment is based on the quote Chris provided. " if you know Jesus then this church is NOT for you". I cannot imagine any fruitful context for that statement. There are many secular organizations that try and help people in need. On it's own, deeds are nothing but remedies for the flesh. Just as skimming, adding or deleting God's Word, is temporary faith, rendering that faith false. We have to live both creeds and deeds. But in order to do that, we need to know the Word,to understand the Word, to believe the Word, so we can live the Word. The Word, is Jesus. The only difference that separates christian deeds and worldly deeds is our Saviour Jesus. The impact of that difference is serving God or serving the world. There are no souls saved with serving temporary things. Many souls are there for reaping ,if, in our efforts to provide this life's temporary needs, we are always serving the needs of the soul. There is nothing that can substitute God's Word. His Word has to be the focus of our every breath. "If" your church is as Chris represents it, it's about as "good" as the U.N. . I didn't look at the video, the quote I referenced at the top, is a billboard for an apostate church. I'm sure you know if the quote is accurate or not. My prayers are with your church, that if it's not well, that it soon will be.

Morris Brooks

I was at a small group workshop in spring of 06 that was led by the leader of the small group ministry of North Point (Andy Stanley) church. The leader made fun of and put down those who wanted more in depth Bible study. He made the point that they had deliberately done away with SS/Adult Bible study because people just sat around for years gathering "nuggets" and never did anything. While he was saying this I watched as a pastor and his wife looked at each other and nodded in agreement.

But you know, it's the fad, it's the new way, it's rad, it's cutting edge, and it's in your face..dude. Bill and Ted in their 30's having an excellent adventure while drinking Red Bull and leading churches, not realizing that they are dumb and dumber.


Thank you for this post because through these false teachers I realize where I am heading and how much I am in need of repentance myself. I will definitely pray for this apostate teacher that God's mercy will hold back his just wrath...Be blessed brothers and sisters, ours is the kingdom of heaven!


Paul McCain links to an illuminating article, written by a church-growth technique guru, about how the methods of modern worship end up merely feeding off of small congregations (so that the megachurch consists mostly of the already churched, not the unsaved), and how ridiculous modern worship services look to the unchurched. The comments are worth reading as well.



It is ok to talk about our personal beliefs based on what the Bible teaches, but it's a sin to slander a specific person as your site does. (Psalm 15:3, 140:11, Prov 10:18, 16:28, 30:10, Matt 15:18, Rom 1:30, 1 Cor 5:11 all define slander as being sinful. There are plenty more.)

You should repent of your sin and stop referring to specific people and specific churches.

If you feel a specific Pastor is misleading his flock then use the example of Paul and Peter. Paul corrected Peter face to face.

We should also follow the example of Jesus. In Mark 9:38, we find the very first Christian critic, the apostle John. He comes to Christ upset because a man who was not "one of us" was casting out demons in Jesus’ name. But instead of letting John vent his frustrations, Jesus rebukes John reminding him that we're all on the same team. "Do not hinder him..."

The apostle Paul in Philippians 1:18 rejoices that the Good News of Jesus Christ is being preached regardless of whether the preachers have pure ambitions or not. Shouldn't we rejoice for that today as well as Paul did? "I rejoice, yes, and I will rejoice."

Scripture does not contradict itself. If we call ourselves Christians, we must follow the examples of Jesus and Paul.

Personally, I think Jesus would look us all in the eye and say, "Please quit fighting each other. There are men and women in your world who are in desperate need of eternal salvation. Go do something about it!"


I wonder if Jesus would look into the eyes of a supposed "pastor" who wears a Def Leppard shirt as he "preaches" a watered down Gospel, or worse, no Gospel at all?


Well, if you knew more of the story of the church, you would know that that statement about "If you know Jesus then this church isn't for you" means something other than what you think. This represents our mission statement: So that people far from God can be filled with life in Christ. There are tons of new Christians in this church, but lots of those who have been in the church for a long time. This is why we have small groups and lots of volunteer leaders. This is the "in depth" search you speak of.

And as a pastor's daughter, I am blatantly offended by some of the comments here. My father is the pastor of another church in a different state, but all the same, don't you all have something better and more worthwhile to do than gossip about another church who is actively seeking the lost to save them? As this should be your own mission in life?


Excellent post Chris!


That was great. Thanks for sharing.

"Now I beseech you, brethern, mark [heed] them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which you have learned; and avoid them.
For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple [innocent]." Rom. 16:17-18

"For when they speak great swelling words of pride, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean... . While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought into bondage [slavery]." 2 Pet. 2:18-19

This youn man in the video seems to be controlling with his anger, and proudly makes remarks about the Church, the Body of Christ, which throughout the history of the world has trembled at the Word of God, the Bible, and also love the Holy Scriptures.
He mocks me, and I think he needs to repent.
I love the Word of God, and Christ is first in my life, and His glory is paramount.
The reason the Gospel is to be preached is for the glory of God, not so people can come to Christ. Though this will certainly happen, for the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation.

This preacher needs to study Calvin, and all the great missionaries who gave their lives for the Gospel, and for the Holy Word of God.
They loved and revered the Holy Scriptures.


It is fine and even healthy to express your beliefs publically.

However, it is a sin to slander a specific individual. The Bible is very clear about this.

Whatever you think you know about Pastor Steven Furtick and Elevation Church should be based on something more then just a quote taken completely out of context. He does not preach a watered down message, he is very Biblically based, and he preaches the Gospel to bring glory and honor to the Lord. He, as well as the rest of the staff and church members, are passionate about saving the lost.

I would encourage those of you who read this blog to listen to entire sermons that Pastor Furtick has available on the church website. You can even watch entire sermons if you'd like. If you ever make it to Charlotte I would welcome the opportunity to sit with you through a service and introduce you to people who's lives are being radically transformed by the Word of God that's preached every single Sunday.

Jim from Old Truth

I've personally listened to the entire sermon that Chris' video clip came from, twice! I don't think Chris has taken anything out of context. Anyone who wants to verify Chris' work can visit Steven Furtick's church website at elevationchurch.org and listen to the entire sermon. Just skip right past all of the "80's Rock" sermons, and chose the "Confessions of a Pastor" series and then pick the sermon named "Lots of Christians Get on My Nerves". Also, you'll find the same sort of rhetoric in this blog post of Steven's:

Curt is also over in the comments on my blog scolding us for using the names of pastors and churches:
He feels that we should only talk to pastors like Steven face to face, but I'm still waiting for an answer from him on how someone would do that if the pastor in question wants to hide from "the critics". Bottom line: Public teachings are up for grabs for public review and public scrutiny. That alone does not constitute "slander".


Thanks Jim for sharing.

I don't think I could watch any more than the portion of video that Chris has here. That short bit was very hard to take in.


Guys, it is NOT a sin to publically rebuke someone for public error. Yes, Paul spoke to Peter - in front of them ALL. Read what Paul said:

"But when I saw that their conduct was not in step with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas (Peter) before them all, "If you, though a Jew, live like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how can you force the Gentiles to live like Jews?" (Gal 2:14)

Secondly, do you realize that Paul and the other NT writers name several people by name? These names weren't just read 2000 years ago, you and I can read them today. These men's names have gone down in history for all to read and learn from. If you have a concordance, look up: Alexander (the coppersmith), Demas, and Diotrephes. (This is only a sampling). Not only were they rebuked *in front of them all* way back then - their names are listed for you and me to read today!

Also, didn't Jesus tell Peter in front of the others that he would deny Him three times?

Puritan Lad

Perhaps this church, and many like it, need to take a closer look at what the Great Commission really includes.

1.) The Doctrine of God's Sovereignty: And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me."

2.) A Cultural Mandate: "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations"

3.) Church Authority and the Sacraments: "baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit"

4.) A Call To Teach ALL Of God's Word: "teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you."

“If You Know Jesus This Church is NOT for you!”

I agree completely...

Mrs. Pilgrim

Chris, very quickly, let me alert you to the fact that one of Curt's two comments is identical to one he left at Jim's blog. Apparently, for all his talk about "dealing personally with someone," he's not interested in doing more than slapping form letters on you.

Furthermore, from Mr. Furtick's comment about how "If you know Jesus, this church is not for you", it would logically follow that no person who is a Christian ought to be a member of a church. And just as soon as an unbeliever accepts Christ--out he goes, into the street! No room for you, bro.

I don't know about other people, but that seems a bit...wrong. Okay, a LOT wrong.

Doctrine is core to evangelism. It expresses God's Truth--what He wishes us to believe. If we don't know that, to what, precisely, are we converting people? What news are we sharing?

Also, it is a deep, deep act of uncharity to refuse to teach. If God grants you greater knowledge of Scripture, it is incumbent upon you to share it. A young Christian makes massive and even heretical mistakes if left to his own devices; I did, and I repent of the foolish things I said and believed! You may as well refuse to cook dinner for your children; if they ask you to feed them, they're just being fat and lazy, and need to learn how to cook!

You wouldn't do that, so why are you leaving baby Christians to do the same?

Mr. Furtick's self-righteousness makes me feel physically ill. Pardon me while I go vacuum my carpet.

Mrs. Pilgrim

Ruth, if you're so worried about evangelism yourself, why did you take the time away to criticize those who are criticizing others? Don't you have better things to do than bicker?

And here we all thought you cared about the lost. Shame on you, you selfish girl.

(Isn't hypocrisy a tricky thing to avoid, Ruth?)


Doesn't Pastor Furtick, and those that deride a deeper understanding of Scripture understand how much they rely on those who they describe as fat and lazy? The church stands on the shoulders of those men who took the time to pray, systematically understand, document, publish and establish the doctrines that freed the church to evangelize.

To claim that one evangelizes and teaches without the foundation set by Christian predecessors is simply naive. If that is not the case with Pastor Furtick, then why does he deride those that desire to build more of that foundation for the future?

Jim from Old Truth

Mrs. Pilgrim brings up a great point, what are we evangelizing them to? Listen to this excerpt from Robert Reymond's book:

"To worship God - that is the primary reason why the Christian should go to church. In today's church climate this is a radical idea. Nevertheless, Christians should go to church, not to evangelize, not to provide a comfortable "consumer-friendly" setting for the unchurched, not even primarily for the benefit which fellowship with other Christians provides, and definitely not just for lectures and devotionals, but in order to worship God. Christians should also understand that evangelism and the missionary task are not the most important tasks the church has.

Such efforts exist among the nations, as John Piper argues in his Let the Nations Be Glad, only because worship of the true God among them does not! ...
For decades now evangelical churches have been conducting their services for the sake of unbelievers. Both the revivalistic service of a previous generation and the "seeker service" of today are shaped by the same concern--appeal to the unchurched. Not surprisingly, in neither case does much that might be called worship by Christians occur. As a result, many evangelicals who have been sitting for years in such worship services are finding their souls drying up, and they have begun to long for something else."
--A New Systematic Theology of The Christian Faith


Ruth wrote:

"...don't you all have something better and more worthwhile to do than gossip about another church who is actively seeking the lost to save them? As this should be your own mission in life?"

Ahhh, yes. All criticism is by definition "gossip", and besides, all people who engage in such "gossip" (via whatever means of communication) should really find something more profitable to do with their time -- "like ministry".

Try again, Ruth.


Call me a hypocrite if you wish, but honestly, it's called "calling someone out". You can degrade all you want, but I don't need to water down what I see. I'll call it for what it is. I do have time for that and I do have time to defend my pastor and as a pastor's daughter myself, I will do so. I get so fed up with the crap that goes on between Christians and the church.

You're free to your opinions, but I am as well. And honestly, all I'm seeing here are personal opinions. Not one praise for the lives that have been saved through this church.

Sorry, Mrs. Pilgrim, I'm not the water it down type of Christian. I don't have the theology degrees and biblical background that some of you do (or pretend to have), what I do have is my beliefs and my experiences with the church.

Try it out. See what you learn.

Sherry C.

Now I know why I was on the wrong path in the first 14 years of my christian walk!I had some friends like Ruth and Curt!"Must not judge!Better to let the poor girl believe so-n-so is O.K. to listen to and not offend than to disobey by judging!"Had they known how to biblically judge and call me to account and exposed those workers of iniquity to me,well,I might be further ahead in my christian walk so as to be able to teach by now!BTW,Any church that is focused on evangelism are disobeying the Great Commission.It says to make disciples,not make converts.Your credentials of being a pastor's daughter really has nothing at all to contribute to making us see things your way.It really isn't necessary to point it out.And the type of judgement call you made,Ruth,is of the unbiblical variety-"pretend to have"...How do you know?At least we judge your beloved pastor by his own words!We are not surmising...



Wow! You should know being a pastor's daughter that often things are said about pastors, and you ought not take it personal. (I never do when people say such things about me)

See, your pastor made some bold statements and people are addressing those statements. That is good! As a pastor I love it when people think after I preach (you know like the Acts 17 Bereans). That to me is the greatest compliment when someone says, "I am going to look some of those passages up that you preached and..."

See the problem that most of us have with what your pastor said is that it came across as proud and arrogant. (Prv. 16:18) Also, there was little Scripture tied to it, and from what I saw, the Scripture was not exactly the focus but the "window dressing".

Scripture is the message we bring because the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation. (Rom. 1:16) It is not by cool sermons, or persuasive words that anyone is saved. (1 Cor. 2 & 3)

Some of the things he said were true (like people getting fat & lazy in the pews) but the answer is not to cut off the food (doctrine) but to get them to get out. See having the right practice can only come from knowing the one we serve through the means He has chosen to reveal Himself, the Word. Not every conservative Bible believing church is "fat and lazy" though. There are many vibrant doctrinal churches in the world that are very evangelistic. You pastor seems to intimate that if you teach doctrine you have a non-vibrant church. That is not so in every situation. He chose to attack fellow believers by denigrating them before a group of many unbelievers, and now you are shocked when some who are in that camp he attacked push back? Why?

Ruth, I hope you will see that just because people disagree with your pastor's methodology it does not make them a stogy Pharisee that is stuck in traditionalism. I will agree that some of these above comments were extreme but all of us must examine ourselves and be teachable. I hope that your pastor is doing so as well. "faithful are the wounds of a friend".

PS Just so you don't pigeon hole me, I am a youth pastor in my 30's that teaches doctrine every time I preach. I am not an angry fundamentalist, just someone that is very concerned for your church because of the direction it is going. I have been around when these "trains" derail.

Morris Brooks

John 14:15 If you love Me you will keep my commandments.

John 13:34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another.

I Peter 1:22 Since you have in obedience to the truth purified your souls for a sincere love of the brethren, fervently love one another from the heart.

I John 4:20 If someone says, "I love God," and hates his brother, he is a liar; for the one who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen.

There are many many more Scriptures that go with these, so go back and listen to Mr. Furtick again. Then compare his attitude, his hostility towards his brothers and sisters in Christ to the above Scriptures. Where do you think he falls spiritually, in the camp or outside the camp? Matthew 7:22-23 "Many will say to Me on that day, "Lord, Lord,' did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles? And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness." And to this we might add "Did we not lead all those souls to Christ."


Curt, I'm in Charlotte frequently, though only through the week. I would be glad to take you up on the invitation you offered. I can do this with an open mind as far as Scripture will let me. I would hope that it would open the door to the truth. Either the pastor and church were misrepresented here or they are part of new age heresy. I don't represent the blog. And my view of your church right now is only cyberspace. An eye witness account is always better than 2nd hand. Leaving contact info on any public site is dangerous. Any ideas so neither of us could possibly be meeting an impostor?

Jim from Old Truth

An interesting event to consider from church history is the Reformation in Scotland in the 16th century. John Knox and those who came after him were extremely doctrinal, very head-knowledge oriented, and they constantly pressed into the word of God for deeper understanding. Now according to one of Steven Furtick's mentors - Perry Noble, that kind of concern for theology equates to "giving the world the middle finger" (his words not mine):

But that doesn't reflect what happened in Scotland, Knox and the others set the country ablaze with the Gospel. Scotland became arguably the most thoroughly Christian country in the world at that time.

I just think pastors are making a big mistake by downplaying doctrine the way we have seen here. Right actions spring forth from right knowledge.


Fake Rick! JG


Good info and examples of godly people being used of God to set the world on fire, Jim! You should try to show that to Frank! Wonder what he would say?


“If You Know Jesus This Church is NOT for you!”

Then it is not a church! Can an unbeliever worship?

John Knox, The Axe of Scotland....

My prayer is that the Lord would raise up more men like John Knox.



dsstanfield~ you hit the nail right on the head. The church exists as a fellowship of believers. Now, I will agree that there are many "fat Christians" who don't serve, but let's face it, without the in-depth study of the Word, we wouldn't be equipped to effectively evangelize. The assumption by this "pastor" seems to be that if you enjoy verse-by-verse, in-depth study, you are not involved in the church, you are not serving, and you are not winning others to the Lord. He's got some nerve! And yes, I have listened to complete sermons of his.
What struck me most about this video was his arrogant body-language.

Sherry C.

I find it interesting when the Curts and Ruths want to scold us while supporting the Furticks and Nobles who are accusers of the brethren!Curt thinks we judge by our FEELINGS of Furtick.Ruth thinks we judge by a quote taken out of context.Yet the evidence comes from Furtick's own mouth!He,himself has exposed his foolishness in being more like Noble than Christ!What can one do but warn those who may think he is worth listening to,because his disciples won't believe anything but that our criticisms are a conspiracy to berate the man.We are told to rejoice that he preaches the gospel as Paul told those in his day to do.The thing is Paul was speaking about those who were doing it for gain and Paul never said that they were teaching falsly or in a worldly fashion.No,for those false teachers Paul said they were to be exposed and rebuked soundly!


Fake Rick Indeed!


A Test: Curt, Mrs. Pilgrim, and everyone else in criticism of this pastor. When did you last, personally, help lead someone to Chirst? If it is true you are of sound doctrine, that doctrine and its convictions and commands should build in you a passion far greater than someone preaching a "watered down" gospel. Your personal drive to evangelize, and effectiveness (Holy Spirit's assistance in line with your beliefs) should be much much higher.
So, when, when was the last person you personally helped lead to Christ. (if it is over a year ago don't bother answering, that would be more hypocritical than anything Pastor Furtick preached, and I am not on his side, just very intrigued at all the energy expended here,).

Puritan Lad


We are called to "make disciples", not simply "lead them to Christ" (whatever that is supposed to mean). You are calling others "hypocritical" for failing to reach your own personal standard rather than the Bible's.

Churches of this type may continue to pat themselves on the back for bringing false converts to the altar to repeat a prayer, but by not "teaching them to observe ALL things" that Christ commanded us, they are being blatantly disobedient to the Great Commission. Our Lord was not "doctrinally neutral", and neither should His servants be.


My apologies for using language that was to general. Puritan Lad, since we are called to make disciples, how many have you "made"? (by your standards of time, doctrine, or belief)

Steve Newell


No one can be "lead" to Christ. We are not called to lead a spiritual dead person to Christ, but to proclaim the Gospel. It is the Holy Spirit, through the Word of God that creates faith,the ability to believe and give life.

As for making disciples, God has given me three children whom I brought to Holy Baptism for their salvation and how raising them in the faith by teaching the Holy Scripture to them.

It's not a numbers game. My success is not dependent how how many "I lead to Christ" or "many I discipled" but did I remain faithful to Christ and His Word. Even that success is the result of the Holy Spirit since I am a poor miserable sinner not capable of any good work on my own.


I am not implying that it is a numbers "game", in fact it is quite serious. It is the eternal salvation for those around us, our neighbors, friends, co-workers, etc. And yes, we are poor miserable sinners, but God in his amazing grace choses to use us (if we allow it), and has in fact, as so accurately stated above, charged everyone one of us to go and make disciples of all nations. That command isn't to "some" of us, it is to all of us. Making disciples is not a competition, it should be a unified effort to tell the world about Jesus and then walk side by side with those that accept his free gift of salvation and teaching them how to walk this journey boldly. What a true blessing that you have three children that know and love the Lord. But your responsibility to the gospel and commands of Christ are far greater than that. My question is about results and accountability, just teaching your children is not enough. It is not enough for an unbelieving world that we have been commanded to go and "make disciples". So, you are right, there is not an ounce of "game" in it, it is not a competition, it is reality. The reality that true belief is reflected in behavior and obedience.

Jim from Old Truth

Tony's question is a typical one coming from his particular view. If any one of us were to give him "our stats" it's inevitably going to get compared to his "stats" (or one of these easy believism pastors) and then that will be followed with "see, they are doing more for Christ than you are". When in reality, we are evaluating two different things (Decisions vs Conversions).

Proof of point: Right now Chris' Museum of idolatry blog is showcasing a claim that 60+ people made 'decisions' after a Christian female "pole dancing" exhibition.

Tony, start judging real ministry by real (biblical) fruit.

Some food for thought. Here's "the stats" of some of the greatest missionaries in modern church history:

* William Carey was in India for seven years before he baptized his first convert.
* David Livingstone served eight years in Africa before seeing anyone converted.
* Adoniram Judson in Burma, six years.
* Hudson Taylor in China, waited ten years!

Yet, Steven Furtick blogs about how 50 people get saved at his church following a sex sermon! Think about it guys. Just think.


How many people ended up knowing Christ, total, because of the efforts of the above mentioned missionaries? Did it end up being 4? The totals would be the true "stats" right? Way to shape things for your point though. Of course it takes life sacrifice, hard work, and patience in following the commands of Christ, as a believer you know that.

I had no intention of making a comparison, the question was the point itself.

And I am not sorry, but converts/disciples were the first and are the most important signs of real biblical fruit in the new testament. The founding of the Christian church at Pentecost reveals as much. Peter preaches, and what is said first? 3,000 added to their number. Then, they establish the life of fellowship and discipleship and what happens because of that? God added to their number daily. It is the only "result" and measurement used expressing the success and condition in the foundation of the church. It is biblical fruit, it is the challenge all of us face, not in comparison, but assuredly in our accountability to Christ's. commands.

Jim from Old Truth

Curt says: "converts/disciples were the first and are the most important signs of real biblical fruit".

Of who's fruit? Yours, mine, Steven's? Your questioning of us on this point reveals a flawed understanding of the bible, that it is God who saves, not you or me.

THE LORD added to their number daily. Acts 13:48: "as many as were APPOINTED to eternal life believed". When you understand that, you'll knock off the dog and pony show of "how many notches does YOUR belt have?" nonsense.

Many of us are seeing through the whole "10 people got saved just walking through the lobby of the local megachurch" routine. We think it's bogus, it's not biblical, and it's harmful because it's making people "feel saved" when in fact - many of them are not.

You won't find anywhere in Paul's pastoral epistles to Timothy or in the NT entirely where 'success' is tied to the number of conversions somebody has.

Jim from Old Truth

I meant to say Tony not "Curt".

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