With All Due Respect Pastor Noble...

Pastor Perry Noble of New Spring Church in Anderson, South Carolina is one of the Pastors that I track online. He strikes me as a sincere and passionate man who speaks his mind bluntly and forcefully. He is not afraid to say things that offend people. In fact, he is up front about the fact that what he says and does will offend religious people.

He has a new blog entry that he’s written that I want to take the time to respond to because it gives us an opportunity to explore the issues surrounding law vs "law & gospel" preaching. The name of the piece is called “‘Nice’ Christian Boys and Girls Make Me Sick”. In his post he says that if his daughter were of dating age that the LAST person he would like here bringing home is a ‘nice Christian boy’. The reason, according to Noble is because:

"Nice" Christian boys are one of the reasons Christianity is not advancing the way Jesus has called us to. Why? Because a “nice” Christian boy will go to church, Bible study, raise his hands in worship and then go back to wherever he lives, sit at his computer look at porn and masturbate.”

In other words, Noble believes that Christianity is not advancing against the gates of hell as it should because ‘nice Christian boys’ are going to church and hearing information that they are not putting into practice. Instead they are snared by sin and disobedience and are therefore not truly effective disciples of Jesus. (John 14:15)

Pastor Noble then goes on to describe the need for Christians “who love Jesus” and defines them as those who will be obedient to Jesus no matter what people think.

So the problem with Christianity, according to Noble, is that Christians are sinning and the solution that he is calling for is less sin and more obedience.

Pastor Noble then admonishes us to look at the sins that we need to stop doing and become someone who is radically in love with Jesus. Noble then gives two examples of personal sins that HE overcame.

Nothing personal, but we’ve all heard this pep-talk before.

When I grew up in Christian schools the term we used was ‘sold out for Jesus’. We were told that we’d change the world if we would just ‘sell out for Jesus’. This meant burning our secular albums and only listening to Christian music. It meant committing yourself to never ‘petting or sleeping with your girlfriend’. As a young man, it meant promising to be a man of integrity. Every time, this ‘pep-talk’ would come around some pastor or person would give their testimony and tell a tale of how they looked sin in the eye and conquered it by following some program, method or advice. They would say that we would change the world for Jesus is we’d just be like them.

These pep-talks always sound so good and so practical and so achievable. But they never work and there is a Biblical reason why this method always fails. I’ll explain why below. But, in order to do that I’m going to have to get personal with Perry Noble to make my point. Hopefully he’ll understand because I don’t claim to be a ‘nice’ Christian.

With All Due Respect Pastor Noble...,

I don’t believe you for a second when you say that YOU’VE overcome your sin problems. Here is the reason why. God’s law demands perfect obedience in word, deed and thought. If you are a red blooded heterosexual male descended from Adam and Eve then I know for a fact that you, like me, entertain adulterous thoughts (Matt 5:27-28). I know for a fact that you do not always tell the truth, and that your publicly expressed desire to punch people in the throat makes you guilty of the sin of murder. (Matt 5:21-22) If you loved Jesus as much as you claim then you would not continue sinning like you do and don’t think for a second that God doesn’t care. His law demands PERFECT obedience and if you think you’re pulling it off then you are only deceiving yourself. (1 John 1:8-10)

Pastor Noble, neither you nor I have any right holding ourselves up as an example of ‘model’ moral Christians. To do so would be to engage in the worst type of pride. This is the pride that results in self-righteousness. We are both trapped in our sins and you know it. We are so mired in sin that there is no hope that we could ever set ourselves free from it or manage it into non-existence through better planning and life skills.

ONLY, shouting God’s Law at me and others will not make any of us love Jesus more. In reality, it will only make us hate Him. It will make us hate Him because this type of preaching turns Jesus into a new Moses. He becomes just another cloud that thunders threats and punishments at us. But rather than coming from Mt. Sinai these threats now thunder at us from Mt. Calvary.

I’m not certain I understand why you think that God’s law alone is the remedy for Christianity’s problems. Scripture is clear that the Law cannot save us. Furthermore, the purpose of God’s Law is to convict me of my sin and drive me to my knees in despair of my own righteousness. (Rom 3:19-20) The law points us to Jesus but the law is powerless to make us love Jesus more. (Gal 3:10-13, Gal 3:23-26)

So then what is the message that will make us Love Jesus?

Answer: It is the message of the Gospel.

We see this truth beautifully played out in the parable of the debtors from Luke 7:36-48:

Luke 7:36   Now one of the Pharisees invited Jesus to have dinner with him, so he went to the Pharisee’s house and reclined at the table. 37 When a woman who had lived a sinful life in that town learned that Jesus was eating at the Pharisee’s house, she brought an alabaster jar of perfume, 38 and as she stood behind him at his feet weeping, she began to wet his feet with her tears. Then she wiped them with her hair, kissed them and poured perfume on them.

39   When the Pharisee who had invited him saw this, he said to himself, “If this man were a prophet, he would know who is touching him and what kind of woman she is — that she is a sinner.”

Luke 7:40   Jesus answered him, “Simon, I have something to tell you.”

“Tell me, teacher,” he said.

41   “Two men owed money to a certain moneylender. One owed him five hundred denarii, and the other fifty. 42 Neither of them had the money to pay him back, so he canceled the debts of both. Now which of them will love him more?”

43   Simon replied, “I suppose the one who had the bigger debt canceled.”

“You have judged correctly,” Jesus said.

44   Then he turned toward the woman and said to Simon, “Do you see this woman? I came into your house. You did not give me any water for my feet, but she wet my feet with her tears and wiped them with her hair. 45 You did not give me a kiss, but this woman, from the time I entered, has not stopped kissing my feet. 46 You did not put oil on my head, but she has poured perfume on my feet. 47 Therefore, I tell you, her many sins have been forgiven — for she loved much. But he who has been forgiven little loves little.”

48   Then Jesus said to her, “Your sins are forgiven.”

Pastor Noble, you will not motivate people to love Jesus through God’s law. But that does NOT mean you should stop preaching it. Please keep telling people about sin and its consequences. Keep telling them that their evil deeds will earn them hell. Through the preaching of God’s law make the people in your congregation feel their sin so heavily that they think of themselves as worse sinners than that woman who washed Jesus feet with her hair. Keep calling them to repent of their sins.

BUT THEN, tell them about the ONE true Christian. The ONE man who loved God perfectly FOR us. Tell them about HIS sinless life offered for our sins on the cross. Preach the good news in all of its comforting glory. Proclaim Christ’s full and complete forgiveness of their sins offered to them as a gift by faith. Give your people the absolution that they so desperately need to hear. Like Jesus, tell them that their sins are forgiven. This is the MOST important thing that you can tell them and you have to preach it Sunday after Sunday.

1 Corinthians 2:2 For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified.

1 Corinthians 15:1-3 Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, 2 and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain. 3   For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures...

And like the Apostle Paul, please don't hold yourself up to your congregation as one who has overcome his sins, but as the chief of sinners. (1 Tim 1:15)

Preach this message of "Law AND Gospel" week after week and those who’ve been forgiven MUCH will Love Jesus MUCH.

Comments

[Coram Deo]

Thank you for this hard hitting and scripturally solid expose.

In Christ,

CD

[the Highland Host]

One of the problems today is that many pastors are effectively neonomians. They believe in preaching a truncated Gospel to unbelievers and a truncated Law to Christians. Since they believe that Jesius died to make the law easier to keep, of course they think they can keep it!

[John Draper]

Chris,
Where in his blog, did Noble say he had "overcome his sin problems?" I don't see that, I see a reference to an ongoing struggle which is certainly consistent with Romans 7 but I don't see any claim to having conquered sin in the flesh.

[Mark Hunsaker]

Chris,

A good treatment on this topic. However, I felt like you left me hanging...we saw the role of the law, we saw the role of the gospel and you provided the perfect narrative from Luke 7 showing us how this works.

But what of sanctification? We know that this too is provided by grace through faith (Romans 15:16). My question is how do you see sanctification being played out?

In other words, I'm comfortable with Ephesians 2:8 and 2:9, but what does 2:10 look like for the growing Christian? As I was reading your post, I was hoping you would address this, because it is a question I struggle with.

Thanks,
Mark

[Vaughn]

You really need to look in scripture and se what God says about messing with His anointed. I'd watch out if I were you. Why dont you quit wasting your time and go share the Gospel with the lost and do something that will actually have eternal reward!!

[Mike D.]

John,

You have to click on the first link that Perry Noble mentions in the blog post that Chris linked to. In that post, Perry says "I apologize for those who were looking for a more spiritual solution, you know, you wanted me to say something like, “pray,” or, “read your Bible more,” or something like that. But if you are struggling–please be honest with yourself, you have tried all of those things…and you are still stuck." He then goes on to say "I have been there–I have struggled–and I have overcome..."

Mike D.

[Lane Chaplin]

"In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness."
(Heb. 9:22)

He paid the price for without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness of anyone's sins; regardless of rank. Who shed the blood, then? Jesus Christ who is come in the flesh did which is why we overcome our sin by faith in Him who fulfilled the law, not the law itself. Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believes. (Rom 10:4) If Jesus Christ shed his blood, was put in the tomb, and is NOT raised at this very second, well, our faith is in vain, and we are still in our sins. Preaching salvation by obedience to something we can claim to our own merit rather than preaching the law to drive sinners to the one who did shed His blood, is not preaching Christ at all. All who are under the law are under the curse. Blessed is the one who is under grace for Jesus Christ took that curse as it is written, cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree. (Gal. 3:13) To HIM be the glory for the great things HE has done; not to the glory of our own whit, whims, and personal merit.

[ej]

to me it sounded more of Perry Noble overcoming this particular sin of masturbation by the grace of God rather than him overcoming the sin by himself or by the law alone. and most definitely he is not suggesting that every aspect of sin in his life is gone. he's just addressing one issue.

[Kelly]

It's still a really bad idea for pastors to use themselves as an example of the overcomer of such-and-such sin, for a number of reasons. For one thing, it feeds the cult of personality that a lot of pastors have with their congregations. For example, you get weird posts about the threats against "messing with God's anointed," despite the fact that the prophets, through God's Word, often confronted with God's anointed when they were in error. To fail to do so is dangerous people-pleasing. For another thing, when pastors make examples of themselves too much in sermons, especially when it comes to the great spiritual victories they supposedly attained, it simply can't help but sound self-centered. And it leads to despair for the guy in the pew who has been trying and trying to love Jesus and be more obedient just like super-spiritual Pastor X, but can't wing it.

The "nice Christian boys" point that Pr. Noble makes is dead on, but Chris is right: you can't solve the problem of sin with the law, or act like "love Jesus more" is the Gospel.

[Paula]

So if he doesn't like 'nice' Christians why does he complain when we are 'not nice' and criticize his teaching?

[Contending for the Faith]

Chris,
I believe you are missing the point. Chris, you read to much into Noble's post.

You also created several straw-man arguments which you then easily banished. Let me show you your folly.

1)"So the problem with Christianity, according to Noble, is that Christians are sinning and the solution that he is calling for is less sin and more obedience"

-->No He did NOT say that, he specifically said the problem is with FAKE Christians, who say Lord, Lord, and then walk away and deny Christ in their actions.
See Matt 7, & Luke 9:62

2)"Noble then gives two examples of personal sins that HE overcame"...."I don't believe you for a second when you say that YOU'VE overcome your sin problems. Here is the reason why"

--> Where do I start. First, Noble talks about specific sins that God has graced him to overcome. He Does not say he has overcome ALL of his sin problems. Second, you are calling him a liar. Be careful. How do you know he has not overcome some of his sin problems?

3) " I know for a fact that you do not always tell the truth, and that your publicly expressed desire to punch people in the throat makes you guilty of the sin of murder"

--> But the bible does say be angry and sin not.
Ephesians 4:26, and Psalm 4:4.

It seems that you have a personal problem with Noble. You post exudes anger and even hatred toward him. Why??

[Kelly]

So if all Christians sin, which ones are the "fakes"?

The solution to the problem set up in the sermon was "love Jesus more." As in, obey him and overcome such-and-such sin like I have. This doesn't exactly give me the comfort and strength of the Gospel. This is what Chris is taking issue with.

I'm not sure what you're trying to prove or disprove with point 3. Pr. Noble is allowed to talk about punching people, but Chris is not allowed to get "angry" (i.e., calmly disagreeing with someone's theology) by writing on a blog? Anyway, not all anger is sin. Desiring to harm your neighbor certainly is.

[Joe Martino]

Noble isn't preaching a sermon, he's writing on his personal blog. There is no problem set up in the sermon b/c there is NO sermon. Faith, I think you have some excellent points and I will look forward to the response.

[Kelly]

Pardon the "s" word. What Pr. Noble wrote was so much like many sermons I've heard that it strongly comes across as sermonizing. Yet it is just as wrong as a blog post for every reason mentioned above. What we're looking at is his theology here. Yes, please explain why and how:

1) Chris isn't allowed to be "angry" on his blog while Pr. Noble is.

2) Disagreeing with someone's theology is more hateful than saying you want to punch someone.

3) "Be angry and do not sin" applies to expressing your desire to harm your neighbor, which is not a sin if you don't actually carry it out (contrast Matt. 5:21-22).

4) All of the Law and Gospel confusion.

[Kelly]

And by the way, the reason it sounds like sermonizing is because he is describing a "message" he gave at a church. You might have a different definition of "sermon" than I do, but we'll put that aside for now. The issue at hand is the theology of what he had to say.

Reading through the blog post again, I'm also disappointed by his antagonism at the term "Christian." After all, the Bible only mentions it SOME!

[Take Time To Reflect...]

Funny...thousands are being saved, hundreds are being baptised, the community is being impacted indescribably, and yet anyone with a blog and an opinion can attack the obvious movement of Jesus by picking apart the blog of a human. If each of you would focus your energy and passion on making the name of Jesus famous in your home town as much as Mr Noble is in his, perhaps we would see a great revolution in this country. Just a thought...

[Joe Martino]

Surely, you are not implying that the term "Christian" is a Biblical one that we are to use because God gave it to us?

[Joe Martino]

Take Time To Reflect:
Here's a thought. Read the whole thread. I'm defending Noble, so don't bring the whole "you guys aren't doing anything...yadi yadi yadda."
Especially when you don't have the balls to sign your own name.
Just a few thoughts...

[Joe Martino]

and one other thing. We don't really know anything about any of the other people here so you're making some large jumps in logic b/c they disagree with Noble. Obadiah was just as important to the cause of Christ as Elijah. One is famous, one is not. Both were faithful.

[Steve Lownes]

Hey Chris,

Great Sunday school today. This was one of the best presentations of the Gospel in Sunday School I've heard in a long time. Excellent job.

[J. R. Miller]

Based on your blog, I think you might appreciate this post on "safe" sex.

[Kelly]

In the Mormon church, thousands are claiming Jesus as their Savior, hundreds are being baptized, and the community is being impacted undescribably. How dare we suggest that they might have something wrong... the fact that they are so successful makes it obvious that this is a Jesus movement! (Okay, so I'm not being serious.)

Hey, if people want to take issue with stuff Chris posts on his blog in his own words, they're free to do so. Blogs are usually interactive and public, up for the world to see. They're supposed to promote discussion, and yes, even analysis if the issue is theology. If you think we're wasting time, you can feel free not to interact on blogs yourself.

I think it's really telling how the word "famous" has become a buzz word in some Christian circles these days, especially in relation to Jesus. It's just another reflection on how Christians really want to be just like the culture. We like well-known personalities and name-dropping as much as anyone. The cross, on the other hand...

[Joe Martino]

Kelly,
I noticed you didn't answer my question. If I have a serious problem with Chris or something he puts on his blog I'll just call him.

[jenney]

I wish he'd define "nice Christian boy" a little better. Because it sounds like the boy is anyone who goes to church and Bible study and raises his hands in worship. Sure, the key was the hypocrisy at home, but how is Mr. Noble going to recognize that when his daughter brings the kid home?

The only outward manifestations of the young man's character that can be seen by the prospective FIL are the good ones.

What does he want his daughter to bring home--a tattooed, cussing punk? Oh well, at least he's not a hypocritical churchgoer!

[Kelly]

Which question, the one about using the word "Christian"? I must have missed that in the last read-through. I simply think the Bible's pretty clear that we shouldn't be ashamed of the term simply because unbelievers refer to us that way and have disdain for us. (I wish *anyone* would start answering some of my questions, incidentally.)

Christians have been forfeiting words to the unbelieving world, thinking that if we only call ourselves something different than we have been for centuries, unbelievers might be duped by the slick new moniker into liking us or something. We've done the same thing to the word "religion"; it's become a dirty word even in Christian circles, and we've re-defined it to fit unbelievers' perceptions. "Yes, yes, religion is bad, we agree with you!" So yeah, words have meaning and power, and some of the reasons we have for condeming certain words that centuries of believers have used are lousy reasons, often marketing-driven. It also makes modern Christians seem as though they have absolutely 0% respect for the faith of their fathers.

The word "Christian" in particular has fallen out of favor with many evangelicals because, well, there are so many sinful Christians out there, and we don't want to be associated with THEM! We only want to be classified among the hardcore, *real* Christians who love Jesus enough, so maybe we'll call ourselves "Christ-followers" or "Jesus-lovers" or something. Besides, the unbelieving world hates Christians and doesn't really understand us, so we have to make a subgroup that they can respect. But wait, doesn't Peter tell us not to be ashamed to be called a Christian just because it is reviled by misunderstanding unbelievers (who did, in fact, encounter sinners, hypocrites, and things they didn't understand doctrinally in the church)?

Sacrificing Christian distinctives to the world doesn't give us more credibility among unbelievers. It just results in a watered-down Christianity and a church that's hard to take seriously.

[lc]

Kelly, You described perfectly, what has been wrong with churches since the times of the apostles. It starts with them trying to make christianity "fit" and be likeable to the world. And it starts with "little" changes. Once it's an acceptable practice, there is no part sacred anymore. Then words no longer have a singular definition as in, christian or Jesus. So the world, mired in it's own confusion, looks at "christians" and "Jesus" and laughs at how so many people agree to the terminology, but can't seem to agree on what the words stand for. And the world admires the likes of rick warren and benny hinn etc...because they have some things they want in common, with those "christians"...power,greed... fame... Meanwhile those of us who stay with the true Gospel are laughed at and hated, for telling people we are sinners that repent and look for our salvation only through Jesus Christ, and that they can have the same! But the world wants what they can get here and wants to believe an easy, get wealthy,healthy, gospel. Throughout the Scriptures we are told this is how it would happen. No matter how much I read and understand that, it doesn't ease the hurt I feel for those I know that choose the wide path. Even people I don't know that I see on t.v., I can't help but hurt for them, that they can't see past the charades and circus atmospheres they get themselves frenzied over. Good point you made Kelly.

[Diana]

Thank you for writing this entry.
I struggled with discussing it on my blog. In the end I chose not to publish it at that moment.
Even if Perry Noble has good points made in this particular entry of his blog, it is more than over shadowed by his crudness.

Personal blog or not, I can't put my finger on a place in the Bible where Jesus said it was OK to be rude, crude, or even slightly tasteless.

[lc]

Chris, New book out by steven binz, selling like crazy! It's how to sell your house fast. And there are kits being sold that include his hot selling book. The Early Show had a report today, on how real estate agents are recommending their clients to try this new (but a very old hocus pocus tradition) method. According to the news report, you take a statue that is supposed to be a likeness of Joseph,Mary's husband, bury it in the ground, upside down facing your home, then pray to it. If that isn't occult enough, some of the sample prayers tell you, to tell the statue, that you know he (it) doesn't like being upside down in the ground, so as soon as the papers are signed, you will gladly dig him ( it) up. And the testamonies are very "convincing". It wouldn't surprize me that it does work. I am a firm believer in , if you invite it, it will come. I feel awful for anyone to be so financially strapped that they would blind themselves and let satan's power sell their home. The method suggested, has a catholic history of 2 occasions of when nuns and clergy were looking to buy, not sell, property. And they claimed it worked. So be it, it wasn't from God then or now. It amazes me how easily something so thinly veiled, can convince a person to willfully turn their back on the Gospel, for something they want. My I.Q. is average and I struggle between what I want and what I should. No different than anyone else I guess except by being taken in by what's obvious to me . So now I'm readdressing my own actions even deeper, I trust God's Word, and don't want to be selectively blind either. These people can't possibly know how against God this is to do. So I am praying for everyone that thinks such a ritual is God answering their prayer, for their eyes to be open to reveal what their really praying to. You and Steve Newell are much more saavy than I, on the net. Please find blogs that have to do with real estate and give warning to the true nature of this practice.

[Ron]

Somewhat off topic, but here goes: I attended New Spring for about 4 years and was 'plugged in' fairly deeply. I volunteered, gave generously, attended NS home groups, etc. However, I became a bit concerned about the direction the church was taking. I perceived that it had become increasingly arrogant in heaping praise upon itself. I remember a video intro to a series in which happy people held up signs with the following message: I was__________(lost, depressed, etc), but I was saved at New Spring. Think on that for a moment. They are currently asking for people to share their stories on video as to how NEW SPRING has helped them in their walk with Christ. There was a guest speaker recently that used his whole message praising New Spring. Sermons are most often life coaching lessons. There is a place for those kinds of sermons. However, the message of Christ rarely goes beyond, and I quote, "Try Jesus, He is the best deal going." I wanted to hear more about the Jesus that the first century followers of Christ died for. I requested a meeting with an associate pastor to express the aforementioned concerns, but rather than a face to face meeting, I could only get a phone call. After addressing my concerns, I was told I was perhaps self-centered, just wanting to go 'deeper', and that if I left New Spring, I was turning my back on a 'move of God" and would end up joining some small church of no more than 200 people where only two people a year got saved. So, I left New Spring, 'turning my back on a move of God' and joined a small 'loser' church that is rock solid theologically, loves Christ and the church universal and is overwhelmingly Christ-centric. Not say that NS is overtly dishonoring Christ, but until they become humbled, I cannot be a part of the NS church culture that Mr. Noble has, with the best of intentions, cultivated. I respect Perry, but a church must not let rapid growth stunt it's humility in the carrying out of the great commission. NS and Perry have done some impressive things, but they must learn that arrogant pride, either in self or in one's church, is the antithesis of being Christlike.

[Lane Chaplin]

Ron, I've attended New Spring as well, and your presentation is the most accurate I've heard yet. One day after a pep-talk, a friend of mine and I were leaving and they were all hyped on the "service". I wasn't. They asked why, and I replied, "The only thing you heard was New Spring, our church, New Spring, our church, etc." Even at a mass baptism one night, two of the people gave video testimonies and what was their response? Was it, "I thank God that I am saved by grace through faith in the shed of Jesus Christ? He's saved me from my unrighteous deeds that I've done that lead to death." No, it was, "What I needed, I found at New Spring." after sharing some creature comfort that got "satisfied". Think about that for a second, too.

At the time, my friend couldn't understand why I said such a thing. Today, however, she is just as sick of that whole mentality as I am because she sees how it dishonors God. I hate calling it a church. It's more like a social gathering/Ed Sullivan variety show (as Chris has said). I'm away from the Anderson area now, but if I am ever there again, Lord willing, I will go to Pastor Vaughn's church in Taylors (even though he's retiring soon) or Dr. Alan Cairns' former church in Greenville. When that place stops being a popularity contest is the when that place will cease to exist, and a popularity contest and Jesus Christ's shed blood are NOT cooperating to meet the same goal.

[SRMY]

Hey Ron...(and Hey Lane),
I have to chuckle a little bit after reading your comments because I am the friend that Lane is speaking about in his post right above mine. When I read your post Ron, it was word for word what Lane said to me that day when we were leaving the service. I was hyped up after the 'pep-talk' but it wasn't an excitement about knowing Christ more and following after His ways and denying the lusts of my flesh. It was just like you guys said...an excitement about what Newspring was doing...not Christ. And I am grateful that Lane took that oppourtnity to tell me the truth in that situation instead of just letting me believe that it was a Christ-centered sermon...because it clearly was not.
At the time, I wasn't a regular attender there but I went there every once in a while...mostly because it was where my friends went. And even though I knew something didn't always seem right when I went, I still managed to get subtley sucked into the "Newspring Rally." Now looking back, the reason why it didn't feel right is because God was starting to draw me out of that "Jesus is my homeboy" atmosphere and into one that preached the Christ of the Scriptures. I began to see that Newspring doesn't really have a solid ground that they stand on. They stand on Newspring. And someone who goes there would say, no we stand on Jesus...we are all about being "Jesus lovers." Yes, but have they ever really defined what it means to be a Jesus lover? That is my issue. And if they have is it accurate? The more I hear about the things Perry is speaking out on, the more I am convinced that their view of loving Jesus is severely skewed.
I, like Ron, think that Newspring could be a very effective place if they would just humble themselves and see that in order for it to be a "movement of God" God has to actually be the one leading it...not Newspring. I often wonder what the people at that church would do if all of a sudden their attendence dropped drastically and the hype died down? Then what? Would they continue to preach their Jesus lover message or would they panic and tweak it a bit to keep up the numbers? I don't mean to come off as overly critical...really I don't. But I can speak first hand because I was someone who, like Ron and Lane, went there, and by the grace of God was led elsewhere. Now it couldn't be more plain to me about the situation. There is no substance there outside the hype, there is no true Christ-centered theology being preached. I don't think that Perry is intentionally leading people down the wrong path, but nonetheless that doesn't make it right. I was a college athlete in the area at the time, and I got the idea that it was important that the football and basketball players were being 'seen' there...kind of like a publicity stunt.
Since leaving the area, I also have joined a small 'loser' church that preaches sound Biblical Doctrine and has a heart for evangelism and seeing people come to know the Christ of the Scriptures, even though it might mean only a few converts a year. And it has been a huge blessing in my life, but it also burdens me to know that the Lord has opened up my eyes to the deceptions and a lot of my best friends are still at NS and heavily involved. So while this might just be something that people comment about from a distance, it hits home for me because I was once involved and some people I love still are. That is why it is critical that we do what we are doing right now...and thats exposing the truth. I can laugh about what Lane said in his comment only because the Lord has delivered me from that time, but had He not...it would be no laughing matter. Now I pray the Lord continues to open the eyes of those people so they may know the joy of seeking the "deeper" life that they so heavily scorn upon now.

[b]

I'm curious, what's the difference between Pastor Noble saying "stop masturbating" and the Apostle Paul saying "stop stealing" (Eph 4:28)?

[jonna]

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[jay moss]

Isnt it amazing how someone can say with all due respect as an opening to rip someone up one side and down the other. Now Perry and the members of newspring have taken a stance to not respond to bloggers. However I am not a member of New Spring. Does that give me a right as a christian to respond, well yes and no. As a christian I am supposed to give you good moral guidance as a fellow christian so I will do that now. Jesus offended some of the most religious people in his day and age you might remember the pharises right? Ok isnt the goal of Christianity to go into all the world and preach his gospel to every creature. When you are seeing people come to know Jesus, and lives being changed for his glory not Perry's then what is your complaint, that he didnt do it in a manner that you approve of? God is bigger than the box you want to put him in. My God can wipe people of the face of the planet and he can bless them with riches. My God can take a rich man and make him into a begger and he can take a poor Redneck young man out of a trailor home and bless him into being a powerful vessel. But the important thing really is not all of the verses of scripture you know, but how much you believe in a God that is not seen with human eyes. Do you know him?