***Updated*** The Real Facts About Rick Warren’s Ties to Robert Schuller

I just got done reading part one of Rick Warren’s interview with World Net Daily and if I didn’t laugh I would have cried.

There is one constant that I’ve learned in researching Rick Warren, HE’S A MASTER AT TWISTING THE TRUTH. Whether it is a passage of scripture that Warren twists to support his Purpose-Driven gospel or his claim to being Rupert Murdoch’s Pastor but not really meaning that he was “actually Murdoch’s Pastor”, Rick Warren is the king of the modern sophists. His latest twist is a REAL DOOOSIE and it is well worth reviewing the facts.

In the WND interview Warren tries to distance himself from the claim that he has been ‘mentored’ by Robert Schuller.

Here is what Warren told WND:

Quote 1

"Without a doubt," he told WND. "I make mistakes all the time." But he added, "I always own up to mistakes that I actually do. I just won't own up to mistakes that weren't really a mistake."

Many false claims, he contended, have taken on a life of their own on Internet blogs, such as assertions he was mentored by positive-thinking pastor Robert Schuller and influenced by Norman Vincent Peale. The claims often are tied to criticism he's preaching a watered-down, pop-psychology gospel of self-esteem and "easy believism."

"I've only met Robert Schuller twice, I believe. I've never had a one-on-one conversation with him. Not once. So how do I even know him?". (Online Source)

Quote 2

The Robert Schuller "mentorship," for example, likely originated with a statement the Crystal Cathedral pastor made on CNN's "Larry King Live." But Warren said he's met Schuller only a couple of times and never had a one-on-one conversation with him.

The claim was furthered by author George Mair in a biography of Warren called "A Life with Purpose" then spread like wildfire among Internet blogs.

"In the first place, this guy is not even a Christian, never talked to me, never talked to any staff member, never talked to any member of my family, and in the book claimed that he did," Warren said. "He flat-out lied."

Warren pointed out Mair is also the author of celebrity tomes such as "Paris Hilton: The Naked Truth" and "Oprah Winfrey: The Real Story."

"What he does is he finds, quote, celebrities, and churns out a quick book," Warren said.
The book was rife with errors from secondary sources, including the wrong number of children and wrong hometown, Warren pointed out.

"A lot of Christians then took and read that stuff, reported it on a blog, blogs copy blogs copy blogs copy blogs. And it's kind of like spreading a feather pillow, you can't get all the feathers back."
Warren said he has discussed with Billy Graham how to handle criticism.

"The general policy is, as much as possible, you don't respond," he said. "And so, I have to live with a lot of misconceptions about the thing with Schuller." (Online Source)

From what Warren told WND we are being led to believe that...

1. The claims that Rick Warren preaches a pop-psych, self-esteem gospel of easy believism are falsely linked to an alleged association between Warren and Schuller that has been grossly overstated by smear authors and bloggers.

2. Warren wasn’t really mentored by Robert Schuller because he’s only met him twice.

3. Therefore, Warren’s message and methods, contrary to what his critics say, have not been substantially influenced by Robert Schuller.

Okay let’s review some facts here.

I am publicly on record as one of "those bloggers" who have linked Warren to Shuller. You can read what I’ve stated on this matter here and here. My position has been and still is that Rick Warren has been significantly influenced by Robert Schuller’s methods of Church Growth. Which leads us to a very critical question...

WHO DID I ORIGINALLY HEAR THIS FROM?

Was it Robert Schuller? No, It wasn’t Robert Schuller. I’ve never seen the Larry King interview that Warren referenced. But as you will see, Robert Schuller has something to say on this matter.

Was it George Mair? I’ve never even seen one of Mair’s books.

So who was it that told me that Rick Warren was heavily influenced by Robert Schuller?

That person was Rick Warren’s wife KAY WARREN! Here is what KAY WARREN told Christianity Today back in November of 2002:

During his last year in seminary, he and Kay drove west to visit Robert Schuller's Institute for Church Growth. "We had a very stony ride out to the conference," she says, because such nontraditional ministry scared her to death. Schuller, though, won them over. "He had a profound influence on Rick," Kay says. "We were captivated by his positive appeal to nonbelievers. I never looked back." (Online Source)

It is very clear from Kay’s account that attending Robert Schuller’s Institute was a life changing event for Rick Warren. In fact, Shuller’s ideas and methods had such a deep impact on Rick Warren's thinking that he adopted them, imitated them and made them his own. We read two paragraphs later:

Imitating Schuller, Warren walked the (then unincorporated but fast-growing) town of Lake Forest, asking what kept people from going to church. (Online Source).

So far we've learned that according to Rick Warren’s wife (she is definitely a member of his family and a first-hand eye-witness to the events reported) in an interview with Christianity Today (hardly a smear and gossip magazine):

1. Rick Warren and his wife attended Robert Schuller’s Institute for Church Growth.

2. Robert Sculler won them over.

3. Rick and Kay were ‘captivated by Schuller's ‘positive appeal to nonbelievers’. (Kay Warren's words, not mine)

4. Robert Schuller had a PROFOUND INFLUENCE on Rick. (Kay Warren's words, not mine)

5. When Warren started Saddleback Church he “imitated Robert Schuller”

But wait there’s more. Robert Schuller himself has written about his influence on Rick Warren. Said Schuller:

“What has been accomplished already through this church is phenomenal because of the dedicated members and friends we have.  I see the results today of the Institute for Successful Church Leadership which we dared to launch 35 years ago and it is still going strong.  Here ministers are inspired to believe in their dreams and to present the good news of the gospel in positive terms.  And some of those students are well-known.

...there’s Rick Warren, a pastor who today is phenomenal.  He came to our institute time after time.  And in "Christianity Today," his wife was quoted as saying, "When we came to that institute, we were blown away."  How God has blessed him.  And today Rick Warren is blessing millions of people. (Online Source)

But wait there's even more! Schuller's own website claims that Rick Warren was "MENTORED" at Schuller's Church Growth Institute. Said Schuller's website:

"We are the home of the world's first Church Growth Institute, -launching the mega-church movement in the 20th century. Tens of thousands of pastors, including famous graduates Rick Warren, Bill Hybels, Bishop Blake, Walt Kallestad, and Sundo Kim of Korea, were mentored here." (Online Source)

Schuller himself not only corroborates Kay Warren's story in Christianity Today, he claims that Rick Warren came to his institute “time after time” and that Warren was MENTORED there.

In his interview with WND Rick Warren is only ‘technically’ correct in saying that he wasn’t mentored by Robert Schuller. This is due to the fact that Schuller didn't PERSONALLY do the mentoring. But that doesn’t even remotely let Warren off the hook. In fact, this is a straw man because the real issue is not wether Warren was PERSONALLY mentored by Schuller, but whether Warren's philosophy of ministry was HEAVILY influenced by Robert Schuller. It is immaterial whether or not the training occured one on one in a personal mentoring relationship. What matters is the undeniable fact that Rick Warren was MENTORED at Schuller's Church Growth Institute which is where Warren learned and adopted Robert Schuller's church growth methods and practices.

Fact is, Rick Warren fabricated the story that he told WND. The purpose of his story was to discredit the bloggers who are criticizing him because of his clear connection to Robert Schuller.

Here's the bottom line, using ONLY Kay Warren's and Robert Schuller's testimony one could describe Rick’s relationship with Schuller in this way:

While Rick Warren was in seminary he and his wife traveled by car across the country to attend Robert Schuller’s Institute for Church Growth. Warren was won over by Schuller and captivated by Schuller’s positive approach to the gospel. Shuller had a profound influence upon Rick Warren. As a result, Warren was mentored at Schuller’s Church Growth Institute. He visited the institute "time after time" and even imitated Schuller when he launched Saddleback Church.

(AND implied in both Kay's and Schuller's testimony is their belief that Rick Warren still continues to employ the methods and practices he learned from Robert Schuller's Church Growth Institute.)

Rather than admit Schuller’s “Profound Influence” (Kay Warren's words, not mine) upon his ministry through the "mentoring" he received from Robert Shuller's Church Growth Institute (Schuller's words, not mine), Warren is now attempting to distance himself from Robert Schuller and he’s playing the 'victim card' and blaming those mean ol’ bloggers in the process.

But here is the simple fact, Rick Warren has once again been caught bending the truth and it was a blogger who caught him.

*** Update February 5, 2005 ***

I have spent many hours over the past two days discussing this issue with Warren defender, Richard Abanes. Although Richard and I have clashed in the past and he and I disagree on many things, we've come to an agreement regarding Warren's ties to Schuller and the story of how we came to this agreement should serve as a lesson to all of us regarding the importance of listening and striving to find common ground when dialoging with someone you disagree with.

Here is what we agree on regarding this matter.

1. Schuller did have an influence on Warren. BUT, that influence was methodological NOT doctrinal.

Warren is on record that he believes that Robert Schuller's theology is outside of Christian orthodoxy.

2. Many bloggers in the discernment camp have drawn incorrect conclusions from Schuller's influence on Warren. They have mistakenly accused Warren of sharing Schuller's doctrine and theology.

This conclusion is not supported by the evidence in the public record. Those who are making that connection are guilty of making Pastor Warren 'Guilty by Association'. These types of tactics are misguided at best and outright dishonest at worst. Therefore, I do not support or agree with them.

--

My personal opinion on this matter is that Rick Warren is correct when he says that his connection to Schuller has been blown way out of proportion. Warren may be many things, but he is not a self-esteem preacher nor is he a proponent of Schuller's New Age spirituality.

Many times Christians, in the heat of battle lose sight of the fact that we have a responsibility to debate and discuss these issues in a way that doesn't dehumanize and slander those with whom we disagree. That behavior is outside of the conduct and life that Christ has called us to.

Passion for God's truth is a virtue but when that passion turns into an obsession that can justify slandering another human being, then that passion has become a vice.

Comments

[Joe Martino]

I'd be taking screen shots, if I were you.

[Jim]

The only person stretching the truth is you. I read both those articles and they only thing they prove is that RW met Shuller twice. Just like he says. Attending a conference is a far cry from being mentored or discipled.
Honestly, this is the best you can do?
And Joe Martino...I\'m very disappointed in you.

[Jim]

Excellent work Chris!

[James]

Jim,

Wow! You are the type of person that will defend Warren no matter what evidence is presented to you. Chris didn't stretch the truth one bit! He even said that it was 'technically true' that Warren wasn't personally mentored by Schuller. The issue here is the very real fact that Warren was "profoundly influenced" by Schuller. This influence was so significant that Warren imitated Schuller. Warren lied when he tried to make it sound like Schuller had no influence on him because he wasn't "personally mentored" by Schuller. That just dodges the real issue.

Great job Chris!

[Mary]

Excellent article. Warren is the king of spin. However, he could spare himself a lot of grief if his marketing people would do the research on his own quotes prior to him opening his mouth and spewing something else- I am sure that would be a full time job. If you didnt know Mr Warren for who he really is, you would be clueless to the poison he is spewing and the damage his methodology is doing to churches all across America. I challenge everyone who reads this article that has one iota of doubt about Rick Warren and his Purpose Driven methodology and how deceitful it really is to do your own research and track Rick Warrens path yourself. You will quickly find that Ricks path is the broad way to destruction.- I should know- his method destroyed our church- a church that bought into his method hook line and sinker- 100% committed. And because of that committment our church (former)ripped the following out of our services: Gods word - IN FULL- not incomplete quotes- the word SIN- any mention of repentance- Hymns of substance that spoke of God and not us, prayers during service for church members and on and on and on.......His Purpose Driven Life has at least ruined one church that I personally know of and I would love to hear him own up to that mistake- or shall we call it what it is- a SIN.

[Skylinerfan]

Mary,

I wish I could say your testimony is unusual. It is not. What you have said is a carbon copy of what happened in our church and, I gather, in many churches across the land. What amazes me is that as we move into a new multimillion dollar building program due to the "growth God has given us" people don't seem to see what is happening. We have growth, if you count mere attendees, but you can't seem to get committment to the church. No one wants to teach SS, help around the "campus", or do anything that requires responsible involvment in the church. Yet we are told that numbers are up, people are coming inand joining the church. What we are not told is how many seem to be exiting the back door. A good example took place a couple of years ago. We were told how many had joined the church and what the percentages were for increased attendance. What we were not told was that there were enough people leaving that the actual net gain in the church membership was a total of 1 for that year. I'm beginning to think that part of Rick's training process is the ability to make the numbers reflect what you want them too, especially when you want tp justify your latest building project.

[Susan Bertalotto]

A lot of the comments Warren made in the WND interview were emailed to Lighthouse Trails in May of last year or the year before. Warren is regurgitating his excuses, just like he does his beliefs and sermons. Most likely by now, Warren believes everything that comes out of his own mouth.

http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/analysis.htm

Thanks for the link to the Christianity Todayarticle. I had been thinking the Schuller information was in the first edition of his PDC book, but now I see where it came from.

[Susan Bertalotto]

Here is the link to the email from Warren to Lighthouse Trails:

http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/emailfromrw.htm

[Michael A. Banak]

I never met Paul, or Moses, or David, but they sure influenced me a lot. Rick Warren didn't have to meet Schuler to be influenced by him. Rick Warren is being evasive. It is painful to find that someone you admire has embraced deception like this. We must now transition to discerning whether he KNOWS what he is doing. In my observation, people in positions of power and influence can be blanketed in self-delusion, so that even in-your-face reality spins far out of reach for them.

[David Niles]

I think all this information on Rick Warren is only reaffirming what I feet the LORD telling me. Jesus said that you would "know them by their fruits". When you have Hillary Clinton, Baruck Obama, an openly gay doctor speak at your church, welll,the proof is in the pudding. Rick Warren is exactly like Robert Schuller, both do not preach the true Gospel. Instead, favor a watered-downed gospel in which it will unfortunatly make way for the Anti-Christ.

[Paula]

""I always own up to mistakes that I actually do. I just won't own up to mistakes that weren't really a mistake.""

AAAAUGH! What a joke!

So if a whole crowd of people keep telling him he's making a 'mistake' he'll own up to it? hardly. Who is the decider of what is a 'mistake' to him? I sure would like to know.

Ken posted over at CRN:"So Mr. Warren, has Robert Schuller failed to "do due diligence" for the "Who are we?"presentation at the Hour of Power website? And tell us, is your wife a liar too?"

OOOH ouch! Wow... it's positively 'through the looking glass'

'When I use a word,' said Humpy Dumpty. 'it means exactly what I want it to mean, no more, no less'

[Paula]

oops - clarification -- when I say "it's through the looking glass" I was referring to the Rick Warren soap opera/train wreck/saga, not Ken's comment.

[Coram Deo]

I sent an e-mail to WND editor Joseph Farah and the three part interview writer Art Moore pointing out several of "Pastor" Rick's defective statements, false assertions, and blatant lies.

I directed them to the both the Extreme Theology and Sliceoflaodicea blog which have done the truth a service by researching and exposing Rick Warren's purpose driven deception.

Praise be to the Lord that I received a reply from Mr. Moore stating that there "will be follow up" to the 3-part interview series.

I deeply appreciate men like Joseph Farah and his crack team at WND who aren't afraid to call a spade a spade and who don't take kindly to Rick Warren's clumsy efforts to dupe them and their readership.

[Ryan Peter]

@ Mary and Skyliner fan

I can't believe you're wanting to blame Rick Warren for the fact that your churches have gone that way. Who's idea was it to make numbers more important to your church? Your church, or Warren's? No one forced your church to make attendance and numbers the first thing, and subsequently to throw out all of the necessary stuff.

I don't know anything about Warren's purpose driven church, but the truth is that - even if Warren is wrong - it was still YOUR CHURCH'S DECISION to go ahead with that. Here's where the real blame ought to be thrown: To Consumerism that has gripped America, causing churches to place more value on the number of people at their churches rather than the quality of discipleship. It's not Warren's fault that your churches wanted numbers more than anything, and so went that route. If they weren't concerned about such things, they wouldn't have even picked up Warren's purpose driven church tactics in the first place! Skylinerfan, your post doesn't show that consumerism is the issue, only that "Warren's tactics" didn't work. Are you upset because the numbers didn't come in? Or because you were lied to that numbers are the real mission here? It sounds more like the former than the latter, to me. Meanwhile, back at the ranch, there's a heart problem all over the church and here we are posting about Rick Warren instead of attacking the HEART of the problem - Consumer Culture within church culture, right from the leaders down to the attendees (as if, there should be any line drawn in the priesthood of all believers.)

Chris, please get off this relentless banter about a person and rather start attacking the THOUGHT behind all of this nonsense. It's a worldview problem you've got to be dealing with here - not Warren's worldview, but America's (or, shall we say, the West's)

[Brett]

Rick Warren lies when it would be easier to tell the truth. This man is going to do his best to destroy what is left of the true Church. Thank the Lord, Jesus Christ will not let that happen.
His social gospel is no more than global socialism with a few distorted Biblical verses thrown in to make it sound as if it's Christianity. The senior pastor at the church of Laodicia.

[Drew Kerr]

Mr. Ryan Peter,

I have been following Chris' blog for some time now and know that he is demonstrating the vacuous teaching of Warren. The blogs about Rick Warren are not relentless banter, but demonstrate Warren's heresy. I say vacuous teaching, because Warren's teaching only focuses on the love of God. A mantra that is repeated over and over by Warren is, "God will never love you any more and never any less." Why would somebody tell a non-believer that God loves them regardless of the sin that they commit? The teachings of Warren do not conform to the whole counsel of God. I know that the Body of Christ is in need of a Reformation. I praise God that men like Chris maintain a blog like this one to keep other believers up to date on wolves like Warren. Jeremiah 1 shows us the characteristics of a Reformer. The Reformer must Pluck up and break down. The Reformer must destroy and overthrow. Then the Reformer can build and plant. The Reformer must have a strong sense of destiny, a strong sense of inadequacy and a profound sense of divine supply. I learned these characteristics of a Reformer from sermons given by Dr. Bob Morey and they can be downloaded from www.faithdefenders.com. Dr. Morey taught these characteristics during a three part Reformation Day sermon series of this year.

My point in describing the characteristics of a Reformer is to show that Chris Rosebrough is only plucking up and breaking down the false teachings of our day that are continually overflowing from the church at Purpose Driven Drive in Lake Forest, CA.

Therefore, I say to Chris: Keep it coming Brother! I praise God for your ministry, because it gives me ammunition to take the thoughts of the Purpose Driven folk captive to the Lordship of Christ. I happen to run into people all over the OC that are fans of Rick Warren. It is always glaringly apparent that the Rick Warren junkie needs to understand that if God is just, then He cannot forgive sinful man without a substitutionary sacrifice.

Chris,

Dr. Morey has a weekly apologetics apologetics class in OC and I think it would be great if you could speak on the Purpose Driven madness. Please contact me and I will hook you up with the right people of Faith Defenders.

[Kim Segar]

I think what most everyone who is still blinded by Rick Warren is the fact that the bible tells us of the great Apostasy that has to come in the end. 2 Thsess 2:3. They ignore Paul's warnings to of the wolves who would come in, the false prophets self made. They have thrown out the gospel, the power we all need, for Satan's biggest lie ever..love, unity, diversity, tolerance..coming like a angel of light..How can you all forget he warnings??? Now its about you, self, feel good, and now yu can't even see the world is in the church. Where is the obedience to HIM...what he says, when did men ever save anyone? Here you have a puppet of Satan, along with the Pope, learning the ways of the heathen, the Pope who told you all your church was not of true salvation, only Mary was the head who even healed him, and John Paul 2 who said he had to go to PURGATORY for some sins and would die and go stand at the right hand side of the Father, pray to me,,he said. and Yet, so many churches are all signed up under the Catholic umbrella, who told the Muslims they serve and worship the same god.Allah the moon god. You run around and say you are little gods..Puhleaze !! You ignore Gen 12. YOu should go find out what the only G-d says there, Following man is going to lead you all down the path of destruction, YOu have war mixed up with love your neighbor. Did it ever occure to you, G-d said follow the laws of the land? We are to pray for leaders, yes, but HOLD them acountable !! We are NOT to mention another gods name in the Church..but you all do !! We are NOT to love the world or the things in the world..Remember Him telling us we are making more sons of hell of them..or warning us to not get on the straight road and fall in the ditch ?,,You send you kids to public schools letting the gov drug them, teaching ways of heathen, walking them thru the fire..and take a good look. Old Spoke the so called dr. who said don't spank, but provers says,,discipline is love. You all should just sit down and read the word yourslef, and see how much you are in disobedience. Take your schools and your gov back. Old rick warren is leading you to Rome and the antichrist who will rule the world under Isalm..a one world religon. listen to your president, who believes allah is the same G-d of Israel, and believes all religions have their own way to heaven. You do have the Other Jesus Paul warned of, Jesus is the ONLY way, and NO ONE comes to the FATHER except thru HIM..You are NOT to bow to anyone, not the pope, Mary or anyone, you go to the throne room thru chrsit alone..and illegal's..they are lawless too. We are in danger ,and losing our country, there is only ONE way to do right. the right way, maybe if some of these phony preachers sold their jets they could send the missions and money to Mexico. You stand by a president who is out sourceing your jobs, killing off the middle class. Proverbs tells you the rich will rule the poor. best wake up, the L-rd is coming, and why do you call me L-rd He said, when you don't keep my Fathers commands? the global warming is global warning..Matthew 24, Luke 21..wake up church..

[Paul]

When you say someone was "mentored" by someone else, most people assume more that attending a conference at which they taught. It seems to me that you are the one "stretching the truth".

I wish you people were as obsessed with Jesus as you are with Rick Warren.

[Chris Rosebrough]

How exactly did I 'stretch' the truth again?

I pointed out the fact that Robert Schuller's organization, on their website, claimed that Rick Warren was mentored at Robert Schuller's Institute for Church Growth. I didn't come up with that myself. I only passed along what has been said.

Furthermore, Rick Warren, even though he hasn't met all 400,000+ pastors who've been trained and impacted by his PDC training courses and Pastors.com website, still believes that he is mentoring these men. You may want to visit this link You'll notice that Rick Warren uses a VERY BROAD definition of mentoring in that article but when trying to distance himself from Schuller, he uses a very narrow definition.

The fact remains Rick Warren's ideas and methods are not his own, he was heavily influenced by Robert Schuller, who is a heretic.