The Center of Your Theology Determines the Object of Your Faith
Warning: This article will be challenging for some of my friends who are Church Planters because it is going to take their Material Principle and weigh it in the balance of Scripture. I am not doing this because I get my gollies by ripping apart other people's theologies. Instead, I am doing this because of my deep love and respect for my friends who are Church Planters.
The charge is bandied about that the new breed of Evangelical Seeker-Sensitive pastors are preaching a Me-Centered Gospel, a watered down gospel or are preaching a Christless form of Christianity. But in my conversations with Church Planters and in taking the time to listen to thousands of hours of their sermons I can definitively state that their theology isn't technically 'Christless' and that they believe with ALL of their hearts that they are fulfilling the calling to which they feel Christ has called them.
The problem lies in their popularized form of Baptist theology and its Material and Formal Principles. The center of their religion is off and as a result they are focusing on the wrong things and are trying to produce the results they are seeking with the wrong tools. I know this sounds like an outrageous and conceited charge on my part. But, please bear with me.
I had the opportunity to speak with and interview a large number of pastors at the Evolve 08 conference. I asked every single one of them the exact same question. Here is the question I asked:
"When was the last time you preached the Gospel message of Christ crucified for our sins and applied it to the BELIEVERS in your church instead of the unbelievers?"
Sadly, tragically, every single pastor that I asked this question answered with these words, "The believers in my church already know that."
That answer more than anything exposes the scriptural bankruptcy of this theology's material principle. It's focus is not on Christ who is the author and the perfecter of our faith (Heb 12:2). It's focus is on ME and the things I need to do to change my life. What my friends in the Baptist stream of the Church Planter Movement have failed to understand is that the gospel message of 'Christ crucified for our sins' is not mere information that applies only to unbelievers but that the Gospel message itself is at the very heart of the Biblical doctrine of sanctification. Without the Gospel you cannot and do not produce Christian disciples. You only produce self-righteous followers of a performance-based religion who have no assurance of their salvation.
Let me demonstrate.
Below I've produced a graphic with "MY Changed Life" in the center and orbiting it are the most common sermon topics that I hear preached by those in the Baptist stream of the CPM.
The Material Principle of this popularized form of Baptist theology is the 'Changed Life'
The Formal Principle of this popularized form of Baptist theology is 'The Bible as Guidebook for Living'
Almost without exception the sermons that I hear from this stream of the CPM are all topical, all of them are based upon 2 to 4 verses ripped out of context and preached as a life application. IF Jesus is mentioned in the sermon He is usually brought in as a moral example. AND the main reason given to people by these pastors to apply these Biblical principles to their lives is that 'God has called them to greatness or has a special purpose for their lives'. All too often the thorny subject of sin is left out or not mentioned at all.
The method of evangelism that these church planters are employing is to market to people in their community offering them advice for becoming a better parent, having a more fulfilling romantic life, financial advice or career guidance. The assumption is that if unbelievers show up then they can apply these Biblical principles as a means of 'trying' Christianity before they 'buy it'. Once they experience positive change in their lives then that will motivate them to make a commitment to Jesus Christ. But the problem is that what they are buying is not the gospel message of Christ crucified for our sins. Instead they are buying a performance based religion that promises to help them overcome and solve the everyday issues of life. Based upon what is being preached the people in these churches are being led to believe the Bible is merely a guidebook for living and that the primary message of Christianity is about life change. Therefore, the object of this religion isn't Jesus Christ it is ME and the progress that I need to be making so that I can experience life change or the methods I need to employ to form better habits. This is nothing more than a merry-go-round of self-improvement and I don't need a savior for this. In reality, all I need is a good life coach and some good advice.
In this theology those who are having success at experiencing this life change are held up and praised for their changed lives while those who are not nearly as victorious silently suffer as they wonder what they are doing wrong or question whether or not God loves them because of their inability to see positive life change in all of these areas. There is no assurance of salvation for anyone who hops onto this merry-go-round. In a performance based religion you never know if you've done enough and the entire time your conscience is screaming at you every time you sin and fall short. But because Jesus death for sins is ONLY ever applied to unbelievers in these churches the assumption is that Jesus death on the cross DOES NOT APPLY to believers. This is not an overstatement of the facts. I grew up in a performance based form of Christianity and know this is true from personal experience.
Now let me offer an alternate theology. One whose Material Principle is 'Christ Crucified for our sins' and whose Formal Principle is Sola Scriptura (the whole council of the word of God instead of the guidebook for living approach)
Notice that the Gospel Message of Christ Crucified for our Sins is the center and substance of this theology. That means that the Gospel is preached Sunday after Sunday and is the main feature of EVERY sermon and EVERY Bible study.
In this theology sin is dealt with as a serious and deadly problem and every person, including the pastor, has the mirror of God's perfect law held up to them to expose their utter depravity and sinfulness. The solution that is offered to solve this problem is NOT practical steps to experience 'life change'. The ONLY solution that is offered for this problem is Christ crucified for our sins. Why? Because scripture is clear that the law cannot save us NOR sanctify us. But that we are saved AND sanctified by the good news that Christ died for OUR sins. The good works that we do are not done out of selfish motivations (I want a better sex life) but they are done because we are NEW creations in Christ and our new nature given to us by the Holy Spirit through the preaching of the gospel (Rom 10:17) naturally produces good fruit and this fruit is produced as an act of worship to our savior who in His love and mercy rescued us from the bondage of sin through Christ's propitiatory sacrifice for our sins on the cross (Rom 3:21-25).
I offer these passages of scripture as further proof that what I am saying is in accord with sound Biblical doctrine.
1 Corinthians 1:17 For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with words of eloquent wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.18 "For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
Notice that Paul said 'to us who are being saved'. The "IT" Paul is referring to is the message of the gospel NOT the message of the law and the message of principles to be applied for life change.
Paul continues...
1 Corinthians 1:20 "Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. 22 For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
Again notice that Paul says in verse 23 'we PREACH (present active indicative) Christ Crucified'. Paul did not limit this preaching to only unbelievers!!! It is undeniably clear that this message was the center and substance of Paul's preaching to both believers and unbelievers.
Then Paul wrote this...
1 Corinthians 2:1 "And I, when I came to you, brothers,did not come proclaiming to you the testimony of God with lofty speech or wisdom. 2 For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified.
Was Paul actually saying that he ONLY preached Christ Crucified? In a VERY real way that is EXACTLY what Paul was saying. He was making it very clear that "Christ Crucified for our sins" (The Gospel) was the Material Principle of his theology and therefore Jesus Christ NOT Paul and his progress in a performance based religion was the object of Paul's faith.
In fact Paul under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit wrote his harshest letter to the churches in Galatia who had abandoned the message of Christ Crucified for our sins and had replaced it with a performance based religion. Said Paul...
Galatians 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.3:1 "O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified. 2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?
So many Christians today talk a lot about 'being in the flesh' versus 'being in the spirit'. But, do they actually know that being on the merry-go-round of a performance based religion is exactly how scripture defines what it means to be in the flesh? Do they actually know that this passage teaches that to 'be in the spirit' means to trust and have faith in the finished work of Christ on the cross as opposed to trusting in your changed life?
Regarding performance based religion, which Paul was all to familiar with, wrote...
Phil. 3:2 "Look out for the dogs, look out for the evildoers, look out for those who mutilate the flesh. 3 For we are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh' 4 though I myself have reason for confidence in the flesh also. If anyone else thinks he has reason for confidence in the flesh, I have more: 5 circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the law, a Pharisee; 6 as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to righteousness under the law, blameless. 7 But whatever gain I had, I counted as loss for the sake of Christ. 8 Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith' 10 that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead.
Here's the bottom line. Those members of the CPM who have the 'changed life' as their theological center and material principle are in grave spiritual danger. Even worse, it is more than likely that the people who are attending their church plants have the wrong idea about what the Christian faith is about. I therefore am making an appeal to Church Planters to repent and preach the gospel to both believers and unbelievers every single Sunday. I am making an appeal to them based upon the clear teachings of the Word of God to change their material principle from the 'changed life' to 'Christ crucified for our sins'. Then and ONLY then will they witness the Holy Spirit effecting real and eternal change in people's lives.
For further reading on this topic I recommend the article written by Jerry Bridges entitled 'Gospel Driven Sanctification'.
And a lecture given by Bob DeWaay entitled "7 Benefits of Preaching the Gospel to the Church"
this may be shocking and most people who read this probably wont believe me based on a few blog entries, and style and language preferences - but I agree with you 100% - Especially this:
Those members of the CPM who have the 'changed life' as their theological center and material principle are in grave spiritual danger. Even worse, it is more than likely that the people who are attending their church plants have the wrong idea about what the Christian faith is about.
When you phrase it like this it no longer becomes a straw man putting all the people at the conference you attended in the same bucket.
I also think there is a way to reconcile the first chart and the second one so that the first flows out of the second and in a way sits in the ring of sanctification. Agree? I also think you can start with a topic and lead people to the center of the second chart - Jesus did this a lot and most if not all of his teaching was topical. Arent the books of Corinthians topical? Answers to questions people had? To my knowledge Jesus never did expositions chapter by chapter and in a single setting rarely quoted more than a couple of verses. True?
Posted by: Dave Anderson (moviepastor) | February 27, 2008 at 02:11 PM
Chris,
This was quite well done! Thanks. I am a student of Liberty Univeristy Baptist Theological Seminary and I can assure you, the "Baptist" CP approach you outline here is not anywhere near that of LU that I have observed.
Lastly, I think many of these well meaning folks maybe do not put enough confidence / faith in that message, perhaps thinking that making it more "relevant" is more powerful than Christ crucified.
Sola Scriptura
Posted by: Mark | February 27, 2008 at 02:32 PM
I completely agree that Christ crucified should not only be the center of our faith, but is actually the thing on which our hope hangs. I would posit that as a result of the work of the Lord in your life, you will change and bring your life (with the help of God) into obedience to His ways.
I would emphasize that this can't be done alone, otherwise it simply results in a reformation (Pharisees) versus a transformation (Peter or Paul).
The other thing that would need clarity here is that the gospel is also practical. Many of Paul's epistles give instructions on daily life which I see no problem with. Where the issue comes in is as yoou rightly point out: we present the church as a form of group therapy or social club that promises change, with Christ thrown in.
I have also noticed an over-emphasis on excellence in the sense of great trailers, amazing bands, and "great experience" for the service... Still don't get why this is so important if God, who is mighty to save, is actually at work.
Posted by: Paul C | February 27, 2008 at 02:44 PM
Paul C: Excellence can be overemphasized and become the goal but mediocrity in my opinion is sin and the product of laziness. God deserve the best that we have - wheather it be sheep or goats - or trailers and music. Read some of the rehearsals for worship in the old testament. I really believe they were perfecting their art and craft of worship. Read about the instruments used in the tabernacle - they were ornate and detailed and beautiful. I think whatever tool we use to teach and preach the gospel and worship God be the very best we can do - whatever your heart finds to do - do it with all your might. Some might choose to have a choir - do it the best. Some might choose a band - dont suck! Some may use stained glass. Make it wonderful. Some believe video is a sort of post modern stained glass. Do it the best. Its a form of worship and to suck at it is dishonoring to God.
Posted by: Dave Anderson (moviepastor) | February 27, 2008 at 03:05 PM
Paul C,
You've brought up a GREAT point about how Paul's Epistles give practical information in living out the Gospel in our everyday lives.
What I've noticed in far too many of the sermons of those whose material principle is the 'changed life' is that they never teach on the opening chapters of an epistle but jump right to the practical chapters. It's as if Romans begins in Chapter 12, Ephesians begins in chapter 4 and Philippians begins in chapter 4. They just skip right over the primary gospel passages that frame all of these practical applications in light of what Christ has done for us on the cross. I think this is a dangerous error on their parts and furthers the myth that Christianity is a performance based religion.
Posted by: Chris Rosebrough | February 27, 2008 at 03:08 PM
Mark,
The 'Changed Life' is not the historic material principle of the Baptist Faith. If you look at the early roots of the Baptist movement and their confessions of faith you'll see that they were much more in line with the early Protestant reformers in their material principle.
The current popularized version I am describing is not universally accepted but is growing at an alarming rate.
Posted by: Chris Rosebrough | February 27, 2008 at 03:13 PM
Dave - I definitely agree that the Lord deserves our very best, but remember (extremely important) that worship is really an attitude of the heart. So, we are to do things with all our might indeed, but what I have observed (and I may be wrong) is that on many occasions (I'm sure not all) things are done for impression's sake.
As you know you can put on the best outward performance with all the bells and whistles, yet never yield on the inside. And we must also remember that the failure of the Old Testament is really the Jews' failure, on the whole, to be inwardly what they professed to be outwardly.
Apostacy set in, but religion never died. God didn't send a prophet for 400 yrs after Malachi, but religion still flourished. When excellence, performance and impression become our focus we are on a slippery slope in my view.
Posted by: Paul C | February 27, 2008 at 03:16 PM
Dave,
I consider you to be a brother and I really appreciate your willingness to engage in discussion on these issues.
I've listened to many of your sermons. My brotherly challenge to you would be to dedicate yourself to the excellence that is needed to preach Christ crucified for our sins to BOTH the believers and the unbelievers in your fledgling congregation. If I can help you do that in any way please let me know.
Posted by: Chris Rosebrough | February 27, 2008 at 03:19 PM
Let's be honest, the reason most of those in the CPM use the life change approach is because it "works", which for most means it brings the numbers in. It is the approach used by the Saddleback and Willow Creek streams of the CPM. They have turned it into a formula most anyone can follow. If you go to these churches you will find that most of them use the same lingo, and preach the same sermons.
If you are not preaching Christ crucified then you have a gospel that is devoid of the cross, and without the cross the gospel loses its power. As such it can not save the unbeliever, nor sanctify the unbeliever. This causes the unsaved to stay unsaved, and the saved to be spiritually insecure.
Posted by: Morris Brooks | February 27, 2008 at 05:14 PM
Sola Scriptura, Whole Counsel of God, Preach Christ Crucified for our sins only? Maybe I cant see what you are saying - but I say there is a lot more to the bible than You are a lousy sinner and need to repent because Jesus died for you - lather, rinse repeat. 1 Tim 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
Preaching the whole counsel of God involves teaching disciples how to live like Christ - and like it or not there is a behavioral component to this - born out of a love for Christ and what he did - not in order to gain heaven. Again - I may just be misunderstanding what you are telling me but I think many here misunderstand completely what I am doing and churches like mine are misrepresented to some degree. We are unlikely to close the gap here - and I have to bow out cause I have to go hang out with Gary Lamb ;-) and I have to prepare my sermon in Ruth 3 this weekend.
Posted by: Dave Anderson (moviepastor) | February 27, 2008 at 05:41 PM
Dave,
Of course there is a behavior component to preaching and Preaching Christ Crucified for our sins does not preclude that. The problem arises when you make behavior the 'center' of your theology and preaching.
The issue is that everytime you preach about behavior you are automatically preaching components of God's Law. The problem is that all of us are constantly sinning and are guilty of breaking God's law on a daily basis.
So preaching Christ Crucified for our sins and applying it to ALL of the sinners in your congregation is a necessary component of preaching the whole council of God's Word.
Think of it this way... I am sure that you are constantly telling your wife that you love her. That's a good thing. But withholding the Gospel from believers is the same thing as telling your wife, 'Honey, I love you but I'm not going to tell you that any more and if anything changes I'll let you know." It would only take a few days before your wife began to doubt that you loved her. Why? Cause you never tell her.
The believers in your congregation are committing all kinds of sins on a daily basis. They don't Love God with all their heart and they certainly don't love their neighbors as themselves. As a result of those sins they may not feel that God can forgive them or may think that it is their responsibility to atone for those sins rather than trust Christ for their salvation. Therefore, they need to hear the gospel every bit as much as an unbeliever.
Furthermore, Christ himself has made it clear that ALL of the scripture is ultimately about Him and his redemptive work.
Read Luke 24 and focus in on what it says in verse 27, "27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he interpreted to them in ALL the Scriptures the things concerning himself."
Also read what Jesus said to the Pharisees in John 5:39-40 "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life."
So, according to Jesus (your not going to get a higher authority than that) ALL of the scriptures bear witness to HIM.
As you prepare your sermon on Ruth 3 you would be missing the greater point of the passage if you overlooked the whole connection between Boaz being a 'kinsman redeemer' and how Jesus Christ is the 'kinsman redeemer' of the entire human race, including the believers in your congregation. The story of Ruth and Boaz beautifully points us to Christ and his redemptive work.
Posted by: Chris Rosebrough | February 27, 2008 at 06:00 PM
Thank you for succinctly clarifying what I have been struggling with in the modern CPM all of these years. I was so sick of hearing about how to change my life. I truly missed my walk with Christ Himself. I am discovering that anew, and I am so grateful to be attending a church that continuously points to Christ. It is water to a thirsty soul.
Posted by: Angela Ventry | February 27, 2008 at 06:06 PM
Chris,
A picture is worth a thousand words...two pictures are priceless.
Excellent work.
Jim
Posted by: Jim | February 27, 2008 at 06:06 PM
Pastor Anderson,
I believe it with every fiber of my being, that when you preach biblical principles, and lessons to show people how they can become more Christlike, you are (with the best of intentions)keeping the old Adam alive. In order to teach people how to become more Christlike, you have to water down the very law which was intended to kill off that old Adam to the religious (getting better) project.
No death...no resurrection. That's why we, as Lutherans (at least some of us) use the law, God's commands and demands, to bring death to the sinner. Then the Gospel can go to work and inspire that new man or woman to do good things (which we do not measure).
St. Paul says that there is no life in the law (what we should, ought, or must be doing).
Thanks Pastor!
- Steve Martin
Posted by: Steve Martin | February 27, 2008 at 06:16 PM
Chris,
I like your graphs and approach. I may steal them in my next talk with my pastor.
Posted by: J. K. Jones | February 27, 2008 at 06:19 PM
Chris Rosebrough for President!
Posted by: seth dean | February 28, 2008 at 08:35 AM
Chris,
I understand and agree mostly with what you had said; however, I have run into one thing that seems odd to me. I am a firm believer in expository vs topical preaching but I am unsure about our Pauline example. From what I could tell, Paul reminds them in a VERY succinct fashion about the message that he had taught before and moves directly on to common questions and issues of the day (ie. 1 Cor. 1:1-9).
It seems to me that he IS reminding them of Christ and Christ crucified but a non-believer who is looking or hearing these messages won't necessarily understand it. The reference is rather simple and limited. Is it possible he spends an extraordinary amount of time at one point preaching the message of the Gospel and then simply remind them of that at the beginning of his other messages for a frame of reference?
Posted by: Brendan | February 28, 2008 at 12:41 PM
Brendan,
Great question.
The point that I was making about Paul is that the message of Christ crucified for our sins was the center of his theology. It is his material principle (using theological jargon).
When you look at the entire body of Paul's writing you see how this center plays out. His epistles begin in the message of the gospel and then move into how gospel plays into our everyday lives. With the Corinthian church there was immorality in the church that needed to be addressed. Notice that he begins with bringing them back to the Gospel and then builds out from there. It is the same in Romans and Ephesians. In Colosians he counters the heresy that had taken hold in Colosae by refocusing on Christ crucified for our sins. With the Galatian church he rebukes them for abandoning the message of Christ crucified for our sins. Over and again with Paul the message of the gospel is the message that he is obsessed with. It saves us and it sanctifies us and protects us from false teaching.
In Paul's theology it would be unthinkable to talk about marriage in isolation to the gospel message. Instead he shows us how the gospel should impact our marriages and play out in our relationships.
In Paul's theology it would be unthinkable to talk about good works in isolation to the gospel. Instead he shows us how the gospel shows us how to do good works out of love for God and neighbor and not put any trust in them.
So when the gospel is the center of your theology it literally touches all aspects of faith and practice.
When you make the 'changed life' the center of your theology the gospel message has no function in that theology beyond getting you in the door.
Posted by: Chris Rosebrough | February 28, 2008 at 01:00 PM
Oh ok, that makes sense.
Couple of questions though:
1. Wouldn't a topical sermon on marriage and an exposition out of several verses of Corinthians as you progress through the book each week be the same, if done correctly, and does that create an issue? If I am understanding what you are saying that I would conclude that it does not make a difference as long as the core of the message remains that of Christ, mercy, and grace.
2. I personally don't think this, but some argue that by getting more people in the door (or butts in the seats to quote Sister Act), then the greater the chance that a lost person will see the difference or "changed life" of other Christians and will lead them to the Gospel in invitations and whatnot. What do you see as invalid about this sort of shotgun approach? Is it that church is for the Christians and thus the notion of appealing to the lost is unfounded or simply overstated in most churches? Thank you for your blog, I have been a continual reader for quite some time and just haven't really posted until now.
Posted by: Brendan | February 28, 2008 at 01:31 PM
1. Wouldn't a topical sermon on marriage and an exposition out of several verses of Corinthians as you progress through the book each week be the same, if done correctly, and does that create an issue?
Two such sermons might very well end up being the same. The difficulty lies in the direction of thinking. Topical sermons tend to use the Bible as a religious "Baker's Book of Quotations", where the preacher begins with an idea and looks for texts that fit the idea, whereas exegetical preaching begins with the text and looks for the ideas that come out of the text. Obviously, there will often be overlaps, but the topical preacher must be aware that the text does not always say what he thinks it says, and must be humble enough to let the text (even a text that he has chosen for his topic) shape the message.
So there is nothing inherently wrong with a topical message, just be prepared for the Word to wrench your ideas and your topic away from what you expect.
What do you see as invalid about this sort of shotgun approach?
Lots o' problems, but here's the main ones:
1. You can also see the "changed life" in synagogues, Mormon temples, and Muslim places of worship (sorry... I'm having a brain freeze as to the proper name!)
2. The primary purpose of worship is, well, worship. Evangelism may end up being a part of it (See 1 Cor 14.24-25), but to turn the PRIMARY focus on the horizontal, me-to-my-neighbor realm pulls us away from focusing on God coming to us and offering us Himself and His forgiveness. Evangelism is more often than not done by those who have been sent out from the congregation (not just capital M Missionaries)
3. The "butts in the seats" approach minimizes God's work in drawing people to Himself and maximizes our salesmanship.
Posted by: Heidi Sue | February 28, 2008 at 05:59 PM
Chris - Mark Driscoll just posted some interesting sermons/lectures (not sure which) about the emergent church movement. Interesting stuff. Here's one: http://www.marshillchurch.org/audio/driscoll_sebts_092107.mp3
Great article -- your insight has been invaluable to me on the material principle... really makes it simpler to grasp what is going on.
Posted by: Mark | March 01, 2008 at 12:39 AM
A couple comments:
The previous poster asked about a "topical sermon"... I would say the minute you move into topical sermons you are going to move away from bringing the dead to life and into the realm of lists of things to do to try to prove we aren't the walking dead in the first place.
Also, I would like to see how your two principles work in regards to the emerging church movement in any or all of its forms.
Posted by: Chris Enstad | March 10, 2008 at 04:31 PM
Thanks for the goods straight up!
Posted by: Thomas Twitchell | March 12, 2008 at 01:43 AM
Hey Chris,
Finally found your web site through Mark Love. I also enjoyed our dinner conversation that night at the Evolve conference. One thing I learned about you from our conversation is that you are very unfamiliar with culture in the south and the workings of a typical Baptist church. It may come as a surprise to some of your posters that the Southern Baptist convention is based in the south. I say that to make the point that how many of the posters on here have ever attended a Baptist church? For those unfamiliar with Baptist churches in the South the gospel is often presented at the end of the worship service in the form of a challenge to the congregation. It is a time when the pastor typically points out how we have sinned and our only hope is through the redemptive work of Christ on the cross. The "changed life" Baptists you guys have been discussing are a tiny percentage of Baptist churches if in truth they even exist. I would be very careful characterizing an entire denomination by sampling sermons posted on the internet. It may also surprise you that Rick Warren is not the Southern Baptist "Pope" and many do not follow his model for church.
Posted by: Rev Scottie | March 16, 2008 at 10:38 PM
Hey Chris,
Finally found your web site through Mark Love. I also enjoyed our dinner conversation that night at the Evolve conference. One thing I learned about you from our conversation is that you are very unfamiliar with culture in the south and the workings of a typical Baptist church. It may come as a surprise to some of your posters that the Southern Baptist convention is based in the south. I say that to make the point that how many of the posters on here have ever attended a Baptist church? For those unfamiliar with Baptist churches in the South the gospel is often presented at the end of the worship service in the form of a challenge to the congregation. It is a time when the pastor typically points out how we have sinned and our only hope is through the redemptive work of Christ on the cross. The "changed life" Baptists you guys have been discussing are a tiny percentage of Baptist churches if in truth they even exist. I would be very careful characterizing an entire denomination by sampling sermons posted on the internet. It may also surprise you that Rick Warren is not the Southern Baptist "Pope" and many do not follow his model for church.
Posted by: Rev Scottie | March 16, 2008 at 10:39 PM
As a Reformed Baptist, I shudder to hear the word "Baptist" used in this manner. ;)
This may be modern evangelical/pietistic preaching but it is not Baptist theology. Thanks.
Micah Burke
Posted by: Micah Burke | March 24, 2008 at 01:36 PM
I may be young and a bit unknowledgeable but I, as a baptist, cannot ever remember purposefully preaching a sermon that didn't make Christ crucified...and resurrected the center, as justification, would be impossible without resurrection. Now that I think of it, neither my home church, the church I attended before theology school, nor the church I currently preach at has ever thought that a sermon in which Christ is not the point is worth the time spent to hear it.
So, I understand your criticism of preaching about changed lives instead of about Jesus, I just don't understand what is distinctively baptist about it. I can't even think of a single baptist systematic theology or confession of faith that says anything of the sort. Even when I preach on a "practical" portion of scripture(as if it isn't all practical), the point is Christ. Paul's whole reason for self-denial in 1Corinthians was that he might save some, and the only way Paul makes for people to be saved at the beginning of the letter is Christ crucified. Peter's reason for suffering peacefully is because Jesus himself suffered. When John talks of loving others it is to walk as Jesus himself walked. In the same way in any good baptist sermon any ethic that exists, exists for the sake of displaying Christ crucified.
So anyhow, good post. I agree that the gospel ought be preached in the church, I believe that the gospel is what authenticates the rest of the scriptures and actually does reveal God and change people's lives as a necessary result of its being preached and believed. But even so, though I am familiar with the church growth movement, I don't think that there is anything distinctively baptist about it, just like there is nothing distinctively Calvinistic about treating people like crap.
Posted by: Geoff Smith | March 30, 2008 at 02:07 PM
" Wouldn't a topical sermon on marriage and an exposition out of several verses of Corinthians as you progress through the book each week be the same, if done correctly, and does that create an issue?"
This is my first time on this blog. I used the quote above just as an illustration. If I understand this blogs message then wouldn't I be correct to say that the closer I am to my Lord, the closer I would be to my wife? I have been married for 38 years and I have found that this is true for me and my wife. All the topical messages about marriage could not make me a better husband than a deeper intimacy with the Lord Jesus Christ. This would be true for every facet of life.
Also, I agree with this article about preaching the Gospel to believers. The Gospel is the "deep thing" of Christianity! The greatest of Christians will never master the Gospel, but every true Christian will be mastered by it.
Ike
Posted by: Ike | April 11, 2008 at 06:39 PM