Changing the LCMS

Aside from a theological degree I also hold a Masters Degree in Business Administration from Pepperdine University. The emphasis of my graduate degree was Change Management. As someone who has experience and expertise on this subject I am going on the record by saying that I am 99.9% convinced that LCMS President Gerry Kieschnick is engaged in a full scale, strategic campaign to radically overhaul and change the LCMS.

I've taken the time to read through his actions, writings, statements and the suggestions of his Blue Ribbon Task Force and am convinced, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that he is following a well scripted, well planned Change Initiative, the goal of which is to insure that the LCMS becomes and will forever remain a purpose-driven / church-growth denomination.

Not only am I convinced that is what President Kieschnick is doing, I can also show you what stage we are at in the process and what to expect next.

Are you ready for this?

Here it goes...

The Change Management process that Kieschnick and the consultants that are advising him are using is straight out of John Kotter's book "Leading Change". This book is considered to be the BIBLE for change management and in my professional opinion, Kieschnick and his consultants are following Kotter's approach STRAIGHT DOWN THE LINE.

Below I've reproduced a scan from page 21 of Kotter's book. This page contains the entire outline of the change process.

I've put a red dot next to the step that the LCMS is currently on.

That means that the VERY NEXT THING that Kieschnick is going to do is attempt to completely change the structure of the LCMS in order to consolidate power and eliminate those structures that would undermine his change agenda.

That means we should expect to see a formal proposal for a complete overhaul of the top structures of the LCMS along with plans to grant sweeping and unprecedented powers to President Kieschnick. The rationale that will be given for making these sweeping changes will more than likely be a financial crisis. The case will be presented by saying something like...

"We are experiencing a financial crisis in the LCMS that has become so acute that we've been forced to recall missionaries from the field. But as we examined the underlying causes of these financial short-falls we've discovered that the current structure of the LCMS has significantly contributed to the financial problems that we are currently facing. Therefore, we have come to a cross roads and must make a decision. We can either continue with the status quo which got us into the current crisis or we can take bold action that will insure the on-going success of our synod through the 21st century and on into the future. Therefore, I (president Kieschnick) am proposing sweeping changes in the business structures of the synod. These changes will insure that we don't experience the financial shortfalls that we've been experiencing for the past few years and will also make us a more agile and responsive synod so that we can more effectively adapt to the ever changing culture that we seek to reach with the message of Jesus Christ."

The changes that will be proposed will more than likely involve granting more unilateral decision making powers to the president (especially as it pertains to key executive positions within the synod), the creation of a new bureaucracy that is directly accountable to the President and one that cannot be influenced by district presidents, a complete overhaul of the money distribution process, and a complete overhaul of how convention delegates are determined so that Kieschnick's political rivals have absolutely NO CHANCE of regaining power and undoing these changes.

Those who oppose the changes will be branded as divisive and Un-Chrisitan while those who support it will never actually be told what power and accountability structures they will be surrendering up in order to remedy the crisis. These changes, if ratified, will in effect create a Synodical Dictator and/or a Lutheran Pope.

If President Kieschnick's proposed structural changes are adopted THEN there will be NO WAY to stop his change agenda. The future of the LCMS depends upon successfully preventing Kieschnick from changing the power structures of the LCMS. If that is not accomplished then confessional Lutherans will have lost the LCMS forever.

Comments

[Susan]

Chris,
I have great respect for you and your education is superior to mine, but I would argue that this is not a completely linear process. I think steps #6-8 have already been implemented and are in the process of being carried out. Would you consider this as true too?

BTW - BA in non-profit management (Drucker training)

[Chris Rosebrough]

Susan,

I would agree with you that steps 6-8 have been implemented in the Ablaze™ Movement. The Critical Events counter is an example of tracking short-term 'wins'.

However, the Ablaze™ Movement has been a rehearsal for the real agenda; which is the complete overhaul of the LCMS.

AND you are right this isn't exactly a linear process but many times one step sets up the next one. And in all organizations there are different layers of management and sometimes those different layers are at different points in the change process.

[Stephen Hill]

Chris,

It is sad to see any church torn apart from the inside, but such are the dangers of a bureaucratic church hierarchy. While there are occasionally disadvantages, membership in a church with full autonomy (in my case the church of Christ) certainly overcomes these types of obstacles.

Stephen

[Chris Rosebrough]

Stephen,

The LCMS congregations also enjoy a lot of autonomy and that is why Kieschnick is asking for a restructuring of the LCMS as a means of overcoming some of the limitations to his power.

[Mike Mapus]

Chris,

This looks and smells alot like the LCMS reports called; Congregation, Church, Synod and Funding the Misson. Especialy in the report "Funding the Mission", the report talks about gathering a "coalition of the willing" and asking the "unwilling" to leave. Also pay close attention to the questions at the end the report Conggregation, Church, Synod, will you see where they want to take us theologicaly. This must be very frustrating for you being a Lutheran convert out from evangelicalism, I know for myself coming out of the elca this is very frustrating for me and all to familar to the demise of the old ALC. The main connection I see is that they will talk the proper language, but mean something radically different.

Lord have mercy on us.

[Stan]

Fascinating.

I feared something like this "change management" was afoot, but due to lack of proper training and knowing what to look for, I have been unable to articulate my thoughts to others. Thanks to your research, I will now be able to convey ideas and thoughts on synod occurances to others.

I agree with your assessments 100%. As a confessional LCMS Lutheran, I, too, have looked at all of the weirdness "ablaze" (pun intended) in our synod with trepidation.

The recent firing of Pastor Wilken is further evidence of your assessment and lend much more creedence to confessional Lutheran ideas of what "actually" happened and why.

I cannot, for the life of me, understand why a once-beautiful synod like the LCMS is allowing itself to devolve into a smarmy, inefectual synod that uses church growth tripe to reach people. Why?

What's next? Loosening of Lutheran doctrine? Women pastors? Fellowship with heterodox denominations? Wait, the LCMS is already heterodox.

Why do Christian leaders feel to need to try and make Christianity more attractive to the laity? If these same leaders are/were proclaiming the truth that was once delivered to the saints, how is it possible to make this truth "more" attractive? You cannot.

If th LCMS devolves into what you suggest, AND confessional Lutherans cannot stop it, do we not have a duty to separate ourselves from such false teaching as the LCMS is sure to purvey? Romans 16 is a good place to start looking at this...

My own congregation has fallen into the happy-clappy church growth tripe with open arms. It's hideous. We've become lukewarm, and, I fear, are rushing headlong into the evangelical McDonaldizing of Christ. Jesus is almost seen as an accessory, a product. My own congregation actually asked the small groups leaders to read Purpose Driven Life among others. Women read lessons from the pulpits, which is having authority over men, women teach Sunday school to men, which results in the same. Lutheran catechism is now conducted with non-Lutheran materials. This congregation practices open communion. Almost none of the confirmed young people volunteer for acolyte or crucifer duty and because of this, elders are forced into these duties.

I'm saddened, but I'm not surprised, because we were warned of this almost two thousand years ago...

“Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke, and encourage–with great patience and careful instruction. For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.”

-- 2 Timothy 4:2-4

Thanks again for a beautiful piece of research and your own ideas. I just found your blog today, but will now be a regular reader.

In Christ and to His glory...

[The Rebellious Pastor's Wife]

Chris,

I haven't heard any mention in your writings about the approved proposal at the last convention for a new constitution because the bureaucratic structure that is there is inefficient.

The steps are laid out before us already....they are just wanting us to march along without raising a fuss.

[Revfisk]

Cogent words from Luther:

http://www.beallwashedup.blogspot.com

[Anon]

Have you seen this?

http://216.73.105.27/2008/03/msg00082.html

[Dave Speers]

Chris, you are right on the money and Kotter is the book that has been bandied about around here for some time. Thanks for putting it so clearly.

[Dave Speers]

One other thing, the synod is very much in love with a guy from the American Baptist Church, Paul Borden, who has been given credit for turning around his mainline denomination, out in California. His stuff is quite popular. What is interesting is that one of his recommendations for changing things on a congregational level is to take the congregations which are struggling, and offer to help them. If the congregation, as it goes through this process, does not increase in worship attendance by 5% each year for a couple of years, the pastor is told to go find another vocation, since people are not following him, and that is the way you know if you are a leader, that is, people follow you. If the congregation refuses this kind of help, they are told that they cannot expect help, from the district, they will go it alone. If the pastor is removed, the DP (essentially another title in the AB Church) is to go out and recruit a known mover and shaker and bring him in...

[Dave Speers]

One other thing about this direction that the synod is taking...when forms/structures are the supposed problems, (and here I sit in a congregation which has been faithfully preaching and teaching for 140 years, next year, which congregation is only 90 miles from St Louis, but in some ways could not care less about what St Louis, or the Synod intends to do, (and here please understand I am not saying that they do not care about synod, but that they do not believe that the church and her mission is founded and run from St Louis, but the hard work of mission is done in the congregation, and that these structures only facilitate, in some minor ways, the mission of a congregation-in other words, district and synod think way too much about their place in the mission of the Church)), the call is to look away from the Lord and to the techniques of men in order to solve our problems...no day of repentance, etc. No serious theological work being done, except individually. A silliness about mission that is both sad and absolutely indicative of a level of spiritual immaturity that embarrasses some.

[dave Speers]

Oops, one other thing about Borden...he recommends suspending the constitution and bylaws of a congregation and putting the power of making decisions in the hands of a few people. Sound eerily similiar.

[Rev. Joel A. Brondos]

Can we not even appeal to the "American spirit" of LCMS laypeople who should at the very least understand the concept of a balance of power?

That red ball looks ominous -- like the evil twin of the well-lit orb in New York on New Year's Eve counting down . . . down . . . down.

http://blogstuhl.blogspot.com

[Anastasia Theodoridis]

Well, sure, restructuring. Isn't that what's on the agenda for Summer, 2009?

[Charles Finney]

You LCMS types have been stubborn and I commend you for your fidelity. Your defeat, however, was inevitable. Your old ways simply will not produce.
Charles Finney

www.chuckfinney.wordpress.com

[Susan R]

I'm beginning to think most LCMS laypeople don't mind having a Meester Beeg and a legion of Mini-mes guiding the starship.
I'm beginning to think that THEY think it's about time we Lutherans got a little respect. More clout, less confession.
They are well-meaning people who don't--won't--understand what paves the highway to hell.
They are what makes this battle more difficult than even the walled-in bureaucrats who write pious letters every other week or so and who will brook no dissent.

[Dana]

The Eight Stage Process is pretty scary actually. My first thought is that it sounds like communism or the 3rd Reich.

[Susan R]

It doesn't sound like church.
It sounds like Meester Beeg has everything under control. Mostly. And we can return to our silly jobs and chores and have a nice day and worry about nothing.
And, no, Meester Beeg will not see you at this time.
Silly moose and squirrel.

[Paula]

Well, no surprises here... :-(

[The Ranting Reverend]

I HATE MY SYNOD!

Confession of faith means nothing anymore.

When I first became a Lutheran, I thought that it was all about theology, now that I'm a Lutheran pastor, I realize that NONE OF IT IS ABOUT THEOLOGY!

I am disgusted.

The Ranting Reverend
www.rantingreverend.blogspot.com

[Paco]

Depsite what other people have said, I still think that the WELS or ELS may be a better option if the LCMS carries through with this nonsense. I have a local WELS church near me that still uses nothing but the divine liturgical service. They have only one a week on Sunday. Congregation is about 100 people in total.

I agree with yet others that say that our synod is doomed now that they have embraced the church growth movement, employ non-traditional services, and allow women to read and teach Sunday school. What is the world coming to? Who in their right Lutheran mind would do away with the ancient traditions in favor of happy-clappy, seeker-sensitive junk? I'll never get it.

[Rev. James Leistico]

Rev. Brondos,
that American spirit of balance of power is what convinced the people here (and elsewhere, I'm sure) a few years back to vote down that 2004 Amendment to the LCMS constitution, which would have constitutionally transferred BoD powers to the CCM... which, if I remember correctly, the powers that be then said, "Doesn't matter. We're just going to do things as if it had passed anyway."
of course, now the BoD is filled with Jesus First approved people anyway, so again, it doesn't matter.

[Rev. Michael R Scudder]

Chris,

Excellent piece! I would assume (safely) that step 5 would include the axing of Issues, Etc?

Just a thought.

[Steve Martin]

Unfortunately the stench that comes from the Synodical Offices just seems to get worse by the day after the liberals move in.

You'd think you sort of get used to it, like living next to the dump...but you never do.Funny thing though, most congregants don't smell a thing.

This from a guy who ought to know. I'm a ELCA Lutheran (don't shoot - ok go ahead and shoot...put me out of their misery.

Thanks!

- Steve Martin
http://theoldadam.wordpress.com/

[lee n. field]

Interesting, interesting, interesting.

My congregation (a "mutt evangelical" EFCA church) is in the middle of something like this. Lot's of "new mission statement, new vision, 'we need to grow'" talk. And some explicit "no dissent" messages (though not directly from official leadership). I'd guess we're between 4 and 5 on your scale. I'm very, very wary of the whole thing.

It struck me a bit ago that church leaders with experience in the business management world are probably perfectly comfortable with this process, and see it as just the way things are done. To me it seems like something out of the Dilbert Zone.

[Richard Ashton]

Chris,

Top marks for your research and its results. Your warning is very timely, and I believe needs to be seen as such, and acted upon in a great hurry.

I'm a non-Lutheran layman in an Australian denomination that for some years has been split, after having been created in 1977 out of the Methodists (who lost they property if they didn't join, and whose clergy lost their jobs and housing if thet didn't sign up), the Presbyterians and the Congregationalists.

Much has been written about this merger. I refer you to a document I retyped in early 2000, and which I have posted at http://eagles-lair.dyndns.org/oldsite/oz_metho.htm

I suspect that while this denomination I describe appears to have gone in a slightly different direction from the way the LCMS seems to be heading, the end result looks astonishingly likely to be similar.

A few years ago, the confessing members formed within the national organisation a substantial group which eventually called themselves the "Assembly of Confessing Congregations" http://www.confessingcongregations.com which I fear may be doomed to fail in its determination to win back the corporate organisation for the Lord, the Saints, and the Body of Christ, because of the determination of what many of us see as Babylon (or similar) tightly controlling everything, including encouraging ridicule of and invective towards ministers and lay people who seem (to them) to be gullible in their belief of Holy Writ being just that - rather than stories to illustrate moral points.

May I suggest prayerful considerations of confessing Lutherans to sever ties totally wherever possible on the basis of "Come out of her..." is probably the only valid biblical approach.

You may ask "how did a 73-year old non-Lutheran Australian layman get involved in this?"

I am blessed by having among my team of evangelical supervisors (all long-tme friends) in a practical biblical Christianity chatroom on irc.undernet.org a staunch confessing Lutheran, who has a close friend who is also a staunch Lutheran.

Within an hour or so of issuesetc.org being dismantled and KFUO-AM actually being taken off-air (not that I can hear it from 14000 miles away) I was asked to see what I could find out, being an experienced computer/networking person, and chat channel manager, and the result was some pages of comment, and a number of downloads, which went online for them to see the following morning.

My Lutheran friend and I decided jointly to officially release the two sites to the public, and I did that on 1st April 2008 (for the publicity effect of using that date).

The purpose simply was to provide a central point of information with an easily remembered address, with links and saved pages. There are now far too many links. I signed the petition very early on.

Please visit http://issuesetc.doesntexist.org and http://kfuo-am.from-mo.com/ and let me know if any errors have crept in since my original contact ran the first comment pages past (I think) three well-grounded ordained Lutherans.

Most sincerely
Richard Ashton
[email protected]

Webmaster chatministries.org
Owner/Manager irc.undernet.org #Christian-Chat

[Cautious]

Chris,
Your observations, I'm afraid, look to be dead on. They are now getting wide play in our circles. My question: Is it to our advantage to let Kieschnick know we are on to his game, or do we do well to play coy and quietly sound the alarm to ever-widening circles?

[Heather S.]

My son likes Star Wars. This reminds me of Episode 1, where the soon-to-be emporer creates a crisis so that he can consolidate power and act quickly to quash the evil Trade Federation. Then through episodes 2-3, he lures Anakin over to his side with his temptation of being able to defy death (or bring more people into his churches?) and finally betraying and murdering the Jedi (Issues Etc. and our confessional pastors).

I don't think our president read that book; I think he watched the Star Wars series. :)

[Michael Paul]

Thanks much for your research and reporting. It's very helpful to see more clearly what's going on and why.

[cabincar]

Being a former American Baptist pastor, I certainly echo the thoughts of Dave Speers. From the moment I discovered what was happening to the LCMS, I immediatley thought of the ABC. Unless the laity acts with its full autonomy quickly, and I do mean quickly, I fear that the LCMS is lost as far as being "Christ-centered and Cross-focused". The soul of the denomination is in the balance. My prayer is that faithful, confessional laity will rise up and say, "No!" or "Go". Too many ABC pastors and lay people waited too long, and the ABC is lost to any true reality of historic, confessional Christianity. What Dave said about what is happening to the ABC in California makes me sick.

What a strange day in which we live when Baptists of all people, historic believers in the autonomy of the local church, would even entertain an idea that a Baptist pope would counsel them to suspend church by-laws, or to appoint CG pastors. Just pay and stay and do what you're told! Unbelievable!! May Christ have mercy on us all.

[jerry umbach]

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[Jeff]

Change management is exactly what is going on in the LCMS. In the corporate world when you implement change management you must gain buy in from employees and eliminate those dissenting voices (“Issues” for one). One of Mr. Kotter's premises is you will lose some employees. In the LCMS congregations and congregants are the employees. Losses are expected in this process and anticipated. The purpose driving church and church growth movements also utilize a similar change process with the expectation of losses.
I have said and continue to say that one of the key steps for President Kieschnick to achieve his goals is corporate ownership of church property. When the liberal faction in the ELCA took over they took ownership of church property. When a congregation wished to secede from the Synod the Synod utilized property as leverage. History does repeat itself. Let's pray that the laity (including myself) stand up for Confessional Lutheranism and Biblical Doctrine. Draw a line in the sand and hold fast to the faith.
About me: I've an MBA from Webster University (2006 Grad) and the text in my Organizational Management Course was John Cotter's book “Leading Change.” I'm also part time faculty at a Major St Louis University (I don’t wish to affiliate this posting with the school) teaching in a business program.

[S Bauer]

In how many of the past 7 years of President Kieschnick's time of 'leadership' has the Synod grown by 5%? Perhaps the sheep aren't following this shepherd and it is time for a change.

[Gene Hynek]

In response to Mr. Finney on April 24th:

Our old ways will produce if the Holy Ghost will have them produce! There are many pretenders out there, but there will always be at least the Remnant, holding fast to the true and complete Word of God. I, for one, promised to be true to the Faith at my Confirmation--wild horses could not separate me
(and others) from the Truth. The only defeat will be when the Devil and his cohorts are condemned to Hell.

[Susan]

Hi Chris,

I sent you an email with some financial statements. Please contact me if you did not receive the email. Thanks!

[Rev. Ronald Roland]

Dear Mr. Rosebrough,

Thank you for this insight. I knew there was a systematic changing of the Missouri Synod taking place, but did not have the background to identify the specific program. I do know that part of a totalitarian take over is to ignore any opposition voices until you can eliminate them, which we have seen accomplished pretty well. Lenin also developed these steps in a little more sinister way back at the turn of the 20th century. This is probably the result of the plotting which took place in the illegal Pastoral Leadership Institute, which is now running the Synod - because they weren't put out, as St. Paul commanded in 1 Corinthians 5:13.

Unfortunately, I think its too late to save the Missouri Synod. Even if the heretic Kieschnick could be completely removed, which I seriously doubt, his supporters are so deeply entrenched that little progress could be made and there would continue to be fighting and divisiveness, and no real return to the unity for which Jesus prayed in John 17, and is demonstrated throughout Holy Scripture.

I have begun to encourage our District President to look at reorganizing Iowa District East as "The Iowa Synod," or something similar, to take all Missouri Synod congregations who wish to remain faithful to their confession.

Your observations show the urgency of this matter.
Rev. Ronald Roland

[Shirley]

One of the required readings for the Pastoral Leadership Institute's course on "Nurturing Quality Change" was John Kotter's book, Leading Change.

In 2004 I was able to print the syllabi for the four courses from the PLI site on the internet. Don't believe "they" allow us to see their courses of study anymore!

[Nathan]

I understand the concerns of everyone here, particularly the author of this post. Dilution of the doctrine boldly stated in the Lutheran Confessions would be a disaster, and I share your commitment to maintain a confessional Lutheranism. If President Kieschnick is indeed trying to gain more power with structural change, then it is indeed within the rights of members to attempt to prevent this. Beyond a scanned page from a book and pure speculation, I see little evidence of these serious charges of willful deception, intent to seize power by political force and propaganda, and an intent to establish a "LCMS papacy". If you intend to maintain credibility with your rivals, I would recommend gathering far more evidence to support these claims.

I understand also the criticisms surrounding "seeker-sensitive" church culture. I share the same concern that if this means muzzling the message of the cross, it should be stopped. Syncretism and unionism is an evil that kills our witness of Christ. But there is nothing wrong, in my eyes, with reaching people where they're at with their culture. We can look at Paul's example with the "Unknown God" speech. Or his statement that he became like those he was preaching to. I know from my experience witnessing to Mormons in my area that I have to tailor my witnessing approach (but definitely not my doctrine) to them. I use terminology familiar to Mormons, and I stick with the Bible they prefer, the King James Version. This does not change or dilute doctrine; on the contrary, they have a clearer understanding of Christian doctrine because I explain it in a way that reaches them where they are at. If I told them that we're "saved by grace," that can be babble to them. If I told them that we "gain eternal life solely upon the mercy of Heavenly Father and the atonement of Jesus Christ," it says the exact same thing in their terminology, and they understand. That's seeker-sensitive, and does not dilute doctrine in the slightest. I understand your concerns about maintaining doctrine in the face of "seeker-sensitive" messages. I assure you that they are not mutually exclusive goals.

I also have some concerns about holding this public blog and the various websites of "factions" within the Synod. Our synod is destroying itself by politics. We are intent on sabotaging each other's authority to get confessional Lutherans into office, and even worse, we display our conflicts and suits most clearly on the internet of all places, where the lost can look and see the division, destroying our witness to them. We are worse than the Corinthians who took each other to the courts; the courts were more discreet than the internet! Why are we insulting each other behind each other's back? Both sides, the "Jesus Firsts" and the "Confessionals", or whoever you like, are guilty of this. We need to discuss this within the Synod. One way to do that is to increase the Synod's acknowledgment of conflict. The Lutheran Witness and Reporter are mum about the conflicts. Now is not the time to do that. We need discussions, talks, attempts to achieve unity, not political attacks and schemes to achieve our goals at the expense of the Synod. We will not be truly united if we oust the so-called "heretics". Or do we want another Seminex? I'm sure that impressed everyone outside the synod that heard of it. We need to discuss this with them, and attempt to achieve unity.

I realize that confessional Lutherans here are not the only guilty party. Everyone in the synod shares some blame for this, the doctrinal purists and the Kieschnick supporters. But we need to take responsibility for our part, put aside our pride, and resolve our differences with an attempt to achieve mutual consensus, not political sabotage on either side.

The purpose of this blog, supposedly, is, "Dedicated to the proclamation and defense of the most extreme religious claim of all time; that Jesus of Nazareth IS the ONE TRUE God in human flesh, He died for the sins of the world, rose victorious from the grave and is coming again to judge both the living and the dead." Let's not turn that into "Dedicated to the proclamation and defense of the most extreme religious claim of all time; that Gerald Kieschnick IS the ONE TRUE antichrist in human flesh." Obviously this is an exaggeration, but with words like "heretic" being thrown around, it's not far off, I believe.

However, being a 10th grader with no theological training save what I read in the LCMS Christian Cyclopedia and in the Lutheran Confessions, I walk in mirabilibus supra me and will allow real theologians to poke holes in what is probably a weak argument. But however strong or weak, hear the plea of a naive teenager that loves his synod and hates the division therein.

[Elephantschild]

"where the lost can look and see the division, destroying our witness to them"

I hear this argument alot, but I no longer buy it. We should not pretend to the lost and the unchurched that the Bride of Christ is in some state of sinless perfection prior to the Bridegroom's return. To do so is to be dishonest. Better to admit our failings and divisions, speak the truth in love (for that is what Chris is doing here) and explain to the lost that we are ALL of us forgiven sinners - even those of us within the church.

As had been said ad nauseum at other blogs, pointing out false doctrine is not a violation of the eighth commandment or the fourth commandment.

Calling to attention the possible use of heavy handed corporate takeover techniques being used in the management of the church we all love so very much is not "insulting each other"

I'd rather have the lost see the whole ugly debate than to hide our disagreements only to have them disillusioned once they join our church.

Would we not worry about a young couple who came to their wedding day after two years of courting saying that they "never argue?" Wouldn't we be quite concerned that important issues had never been discussed?

[S. White]

Chris,
I've been a avid reader/follower of yours since I heard you on the Issues, ETC. radio program some years back. The reason for this comment is I came across your name recently on biblicalthought.com in which the commenter stated that you would be teaching one of their apologetic classes. This is just an encouragement/warning for you to be careful of any dealings with faith defender ministries. Not sure if you've been apprised to any of the current Robert Morey incidents, but sufficed to say just please keep your eyes pealed (2 Peter 3:17).

Here are a couple of links to give you and idea of what has recently been going on:

http://www.putfile.com/lieutenantcolumbo/media
http://www.bobmorey.com
http://theocentricliving.blogspot.com/2008/04/abuses-of-dr-robert-morey-part-3-my.html
http://blogs.ocweekly.com/navelgazing/gimme-that-oc-religion/biblicalthoughtcom-adeletin/

God Bless your ministry Chris,
S. White

[M. Jonsson]

Mr. Chris Rosebrough,
I heard from a friend that you have been invited to speak at the Faith Defenders group. Assuming this is correct, please in the spirit of love for you and your reputation, not to mention many possible regrets, please reconsider if this is what the LORD would have you do. Many have experienced terrible, unmitigated abuse by this man, which has been documented. Some of the abuse has arisen when they learned of his shady dealings or sought to bring them to light. Many of us wish someone had given us a warning like this that could be backed up by fairly solid testimony. Provided below are some resources to verify this warning about mr. morey is real and is not made-up cream puffery.

- Audio link where one can listen to much damaging evidence on robert morey’s shady dealings. It is true what they say about his actions? The evidence seems to be quite strong.

http://www.putfile.com/lieutenantcolumbo/media

Note ‘tales of the strange and weird’audio where people give testimonies of dealings with the mr. morey. The hank kitchen investigations are quite revealing as well.

- Google: ‘OC weekly morey’ & check out morey blogs w/comments, or see link on Thy Name is Arrogance (below) and comments following. The comments are especially revealing.

http://blogs.ocweekly.com/navelgazing/gimme-that-oc-religion/arrogance-thy-name-is-robert-m/

- Blog link http://theocentricliving.blogspot.com/ This blog is by an ex-fcc staffer, who left fcc quietly, but was nevertheless publicly slandered by mr. morey. Study parts 4, 3, 2 re: alleged Robert Morey abuses. See ESPECIALLY the comments to each one. The comments are being largely generated by ex-fcc people who in the spirit of Ephes. 5:11 (expose the works of darkness…especially they are in the church), seek to expose mr. morey. In the spirit of loving thy neighbor, they seek to protect others from becoming future victims of mr. morey. Mr. morey has made himself held elder at fcc (with no other elders to hold him accountable). He thus makes himself open target of investigation based on his outrageous actions against the saints. Many have tried matt. 18 with him, but to no avail due his mockery of the process. Thus their only course is to speak out to others and warn them of what they feel is a predator.

It seems God is acting in this matter against mr. morey. Glory be to God for this. God has dispersed 3 exoduses of people away from fcc to get them under the care of a new shepherd. He's recently brought many of them back together to do some repairing of relationships and at the same time is bringing to light morey's allegedly shady dealings with the saints the last 15 years. This obviously is God's providential timing. He is sovereign. He is the Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. Morey's recent public attacks on 2 families that were on staff paved the road for his past to have the light shined on it at this time thanks to Joel’s blog and to other courageous enough to finally speak out.

- This blog has some excellent link related to robert morey issues. http://saintaugustinian.blogspot.com/

MGB,
M. Jonsson

[Jeremy]

In response to "Paco" and the comment on April 25th regarding Women teaching Sunday school, etc. Respectfully sir, you need to go back and read your New Testament again. Even Christ himself allowed women to minister alongside him. You can find this in the Gospel of Mark. "Diakoneo" is the greek verb for "to minister" and describes the actions of the women that followed Jesus.

You can also look at Priscilla teaching Apollos in the book of Acts. Women played (and should still play!) a significant role in the mission of the church.

[Virginialutherans]

Excellent post, and puts together some of the pieces I was missing. This whole enterprise by Kischnick and company is not in the best interests of the LC-MS. They definitely don't address the real issues that drive people to Christ, namely sin and Christ's redeeming work. It is too much to ask, unfortunately, from the LC-MS to promote orthodox teaching (orthodox to the Word of God). I received a reply in correspondence with the South Eastern District about starting an orthodox confessional Lutheran mission. I was told that a "more orthodox church" was not allowed, and was given the impression confessional churches were not welcome. I have since left the LC-MS and started a mission church with the help of the United Lutheran Mission Association (ULMA). I worry for my brethren in the LC-MS as it appears the Synod is headed down the happy-go-lucky wide path with no regard for dangers and darkness ahead. *sigh* God have mercy on us...

[Jon]

It is too bad the LCMS has seemingly gone away from the historical confessions.

I sincerely believe the LCMS we once knew is dead, except in a few confessional churches. The new "hymnal" they created is garbage, IMO.

RIP, LCMS

[Stan Slonkosky]

Because I had heard good things about Pr. Wade Butler from Pr. Cwirla and Pat Kyle, I went to his installation service in Reseda on Sunday.

But I see from the worship folder that he "intends to finish his Doctorate at the Adizes Institute for Change and Management in Santa Barbara" (though according to http://www.adizes.com/institute_adizes.html , it's actually in Carpineria).

In his podcasts, Pr. Butler talks about changing the way we do church (sounds like he's been studying Rick Warren). He plans to both what he calls Aaronic/transcendent/liturgial and Davidic/imminent/non-liturgical services. His church web site is http://christlutherantoday.com .

[Jon]

You all are ridiculous.