Live Blogging Notes.... Keep refreshing if you'd like to read my updates.
* Note: These are my notes and initial impressions about what I heard at the Purpose Driven Community Gathering. This is NOT NOT NOT my response to what I heard and experienced. My response, if I write one at all, will not come until after I've had time to reflect and process all of the information.
Today is day two of the PD Community Gathering. I sitting at the one of the media blogging tables getting ready to listen to part 3 of Rick Warren's conference series entitled "Manifesto for Renewal". This morning's topic will be "Preaching with Purpose".
Warren is stalling for time while they pass out the notes for this segment. I bet every Kinkos within a 20 mile radius is working over time to copy enough handouts for everyone attending the conference.
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1. God's purpose for man is to make us like Christ.
"The whole purpose of life is to make us like Christ". And according to Warren, "If you don't know this then you're not ready to preach".
Convictions, Character & Conduct
Sanctification means to become like Jesus.
According to Warren the problem with a lot of preaching is that it produces learners instead of doers.
2. God's Purpose for the Bible
The Purpose of the Bible is for lives to be changed
Challenge our character and change our conduct.
Woah!!!!
Warren just said that the Bible is not a history book but is a "Manual for Life".
Warren said, "The Bible tells us how to live".
Warren said, "There are far more people who know more than they are doing".
Warren said, "Purpose of preaching is to change character and change conduct."
Warren said, "Application of the word of God is where life change takes place."
Thinking out loud: Warren is the new John Wesley. This is the 21st Century version of Methodism.
3. God's Purpose for Preaching - Eph 4:11-13 NIV
4. God's Purpose for the Preacher is to be a Bridge Builder
Four Stages of Bridge-Building
1. Study the text
2. Find the Timeless Truth
3. Think of your audience
4. Apply the truth to their situation.
6 Things that are true of EVERY audience.
1. Everybody wants to be loved - many are lonely
2. Everybody wants their life to count.
3. Life is empty without Christ.
4. People are carrying a load of guilt.
5. Many cosumed with bitterness and resentment.
6. Universal fear of death.
Warren is on a role defending "how to sermons" and is making his case for the Application being the primary purpose of scripture.
"Knowledge without application produces pride"
"Knowledge without application brings judgement"
Percentage of application in scripture
Romans - 50%
Eph - 50%
Galatians - claims it is 100% application
James - 80%
1 Peter - 80%
Sermon on the Mt. - 100% applications
5. Becoming a Purpose-Driven Preacher
The goal of purpose-driven preaching is not instruction.
The goal of purpose-driven preaching is obedience.
The result of purpose-driven preaching is a disciple (not a listener).
Thinking out loud: Warren totally confuses law and gospel.
Said Warren, "Always preach for a response".
What Warren has learned about Preaching for Life Change
1. All Behavior is based on a belief.
2. Behind every sin is a lie that I am believing.
Said Warren, "It is the deception of Satan's lies that causes us to sin."
3. Change always starts in the mind.
4. To help people change we must change change their beliefs first.
5. Trying to change people's behavior without changing their beliefs is a waste of time.
6. The Bible Term for "Changing Your Mind" is Repentance - Metanoia.
7. You Don't Change People's Minds, The "applied word of God" does.
8. Changing the way I act is the result or fruit of repentance.
9. The deepest kind of preaching is preaching for repentance.
Warren claims, "Repentance is the CENTRAL message of the New Testament".
10. To produce lasting life-change you must enlighten the mind, engage the emotions and challenge the will.
The purpose of the Bible is for God to reveal Himself to men so that they may know Him through His son. Lives are changed as a result, but the primary reason for the Scriptures is for God to reveal Himself in truth and clarity so that He may be honored and glorified as is due Him. It's all about Him, not us. Once again, Rick puts man at the front end.
Posted by: Ingrid | May 21, 2008 at 12:18 PM
Ingrid said: "The purpose of the Bible is for God to reveal Himself to men SO THAT they may know Him through His Son." End result: lives are changed, people spend eternity with God instead of eternally separated from Him. Ingrid's "Saved" post today would seem to confirm this: "The simple Gospel, preached faithfully, is what God has chosen to use to turn the hearts of sinners to faith in the atoning work of His Son."
The Gospel is what God uses to turn the hearts of sinners = The purpose of the Bible is to change lives.
What am I missing?
Posted by: John Draper | May 21, 2008 at 12:58 PM
"Warren is the new John Wesley."
Sorry, I didn't understand that. I thought Wesley was a good preacher. Was I wrong? Could you clarify it, please? because I had read in the Internet that Rick Warren has lead the american church toward a false gospel, doesn't he?
Thank you in advance. God bless you.
Posted by: Illary | May 21, 2008 at 01:05 PM
Let's see - make us like Christ, become like Jesus, be doers, Warrens' message of "deeds not creeds", faith and works - I'd say check your notes again to see if he uses terms like "initial justification", "infused", "final justification". If so I'd say he predates Wesley and sounds more like the Council of Trent.
Posted by: Mark | May 21, 2008 at 01:50 PM
As you noted Rick does talk about repentance now and then. But be very careful with the wording. Many of us, like you, have noted that just saying the word repentance does not mean the same thing the Bible means by the term. Rick has had this same view since his post in 2006:
http://www.pastors.com/RWMT/?id=246&artid=4552&expand=1
He mixes good parts of Scripture with his dislike for Church History…namely the “kooks”.
He gets metanoia wrong in context. This follows the same mindset of Zane Hodges where just a slight re-wording of the text sound kinder….”a change in mind… They start from the base word that means “think” and then work from the base word to their Greek translation.
Actually in the Greek (as seen in Luke 3:8) it is best translated as a “reversal of the mind” ….or “reversal of thinking” (using Rick’s wording)…to us Americans that means a 180 degree turn. That is why we say it means to turn away from sin.
It is not a paradigm shift. That is expressed in the wrong context. A paradigm shift as first coined by Thomas Kuhn is a change in assumptions. Rick gets part of the word right when he talks about value change but it is deeper than that. You change your life style, actions and motives. That is what should be preached from the pulpit.
And by the way I sat through a year of sermons by Rick from 1999-2000. Sin and repentance were not preached from the pulpit.
So he may think he preaches sin and repentance but you can think the sky is purple and pink when it is actually blue.
thanks
john O
Posted by: johno | May 21, 2008 at 02:18 PM
Interesting - So Warren says repentance is the the central message of the NT while defining repentance as 'changing your mind.'
I can honestly say I change my mind all the time... and yet I don't think I'm nearly as repentant as I should be.
Posted by: Chris | May 21, 2008 at 02:31 PM
Oh and I forgot to tell you that Rick changed that entry in 2006 to what you see now....
Here is the original posting"
"8. Changing the way I act is the fruit of repentance
Technically, repentance is not behavioral change. Behavior change is the result of repentance. Repentance does not mean forsaking your sin. Repentance simply means to change your mind. John the Baptist said in Matthew 3:8 (NIV), ?Produce fruit in keeping with repentance.? In other words, ?OK, you?ve changed your mind about God, about life, about sin, about yourself ? now let?s see some fruit as a result of it.?"
you can still find it online at
http://web.archive.org/web/20060427165350/http://www.pastors.com/RWMT/?id=246&artid=4552&expand=1
Gotta love that one line that Rick quielty removed:
"Repentance does not mean forsaking your sin."
Blessings
John O
Posted by: johno | May 21, 2008 at 02:35 PM
I stand corrected. I heard Rick removed that line after Mark Dever had noticed it and sent Rick Warren a note.
Rick left it in. My apologies.
John O
Posted by: johno | May 21, 2008 at 02:42 PM
"2. Behind every sin is a lie that I am believing.
Said Warren, "It is the deception of Satan's lies that causes us to sin.""
So does that mean that I am not responsible for my sin? I guess not according to Warren.
Posted by: Ryan | May 21, 2008 at 02:50 PM
Chris - I applaud you for being able to stomach and to endure this conference for your readers. My stomach continues to turn just reading and hearing the phrases "purpose driven this" or "purpose driven that". Here is what our resolve should be for doing what we do, "What? know ye not that...YE ARE NOT YOUR OWN (my emphasis)? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's." (1 Cor. 6:19-20) Ingrid said it so succintly...it's all about Him -- the sole driving force (no New Age lingo implied here) behind what we say, do or think and why.
Posted by: Another Chris | May 21, 2008 at 03:24 PM
Hi Chris,
You said something in class this morning about "modifying" one of your conclusions about Rick Warren... Could I ask you what it was? (You mentioned that all of your conclusions remained the same over this three day period except for one.)
Thanks,
Katie
Posted by: Katie | May 25, 2008 at 05:53 PM
Chris said: "Thinking out loud: Warren is the new John Wesley. This is the 21st Century version of Methodism."
As a Wesleyan and a Methodist pastor I was so happy to see this :) It is no wonder Warren resonates with me so much.
By the way, I agree with his notes above 100%. There are far too many people who know far too much and do far too little in churches today. Wesley saw this and sought to change it. He wasn't liked by certain religious types either.
peace,
Chad
Posted by: Chad | May 25, 2008 at 09:04 PM
If Warren believes this to be true, why did he write a book on Bible Study Methods, which is quite analytical in nature. It's a "learners book", if you will, yet here he is, trashing the exact same attitude.
Posted by: Douglas K. Adu-Boahen | May 26, 2008 at 09:18 PM
Ingrid, you are spot on. (an inflated anthropology and a shrunken theology)
Was there any teaching on the Holy Spirit at the PD conference? It is the Spirit who brings about genuine "life change" in us. Not any of man's methods i.e. behaviorism. Or has Warren worked out and documented the formula for the Holy Spirit - the means in which God works and changes us? (sarc.)
If PD is the way to discipleship and church growth, how on Earth did the church survive for 2000 years without it? How did 3000+ people get saved in one day? Did the disciples sit around theorizing about the best church model, the best teaching method, teaching about reducing your stress, time management, powerpoint slides, music, sound system? Did they go to a PD conference? Did they preach on how to reduce stress? Did they have to figure out who was their core group, their committed group? Did they come up with a mission statement, and a bunch of core commitments? Did they run a survey to find out the needs of what people want in a church? Did the apostles go to the synagogue and double the lighting before church in order to generate revival?
"Here’s an experiment: This week secretly replace all the light bulbs in your worship center with twice the watts, then notice the change in mood in next Sunday’s service. You may have revival!"
http://www.pastors.com/RWMT/default.asp?id=301&artid=6862&expand=1
...among other things.
This teaching makes no room for the Spirit because he places the responsibility for change on man's ability to preach well, to market well, to "do church" well, to light the church well, find people's percieved need and meet it. Just like a business.
We need to return to the simplicity of the Gospel, in Word and prayer, in encouragement and service to one another, singing Biblically faithful songs about God's great love for us.
Because the only thing people really need is Jesus.
Posted by: wilson | May 26, 2008 at 09:36 PM
Wilson, you said: We need to return to the simplicity of the Gospel, in Word and prayer, in encouragement and service to one another, singing Biblically faithful songs about God's great love for us.
From what I know of RW I don't think he would disagree with you on this point, nor would I. Being professional in what we do as pastors is not mutually exclusive of the Holy Spirit's work in and through us. As a pastor myself I want to give my best to the glory of God, which is what Warren wishes to do and help other pastors do. Also, as a pastor, I have seen the flip side - a laziness and nonchalant attitude that is symptomatic of relying too much on the idea that God will just do it all and we need not do anything.
The church survived for 2000 years because it is God's church and He promised that it would. Yet he has also given us the Spirit to LEAD us into truth, which if you study church history you find some dramatic changes and reformations taking place. The message has not changed but how it is presented and packaged always has and always must - that is where PD fits in. It may not have worked 1000 years ago, but it does work today. Just as the methods of 1000 years ago won't work in most cases today.
peace,
Chad
Posted by: Chad | May 26, 2008 at 09:46 PM
3. Think of your audience
Yeah, a majority of them are unconverted, not looking for Christ at all. They are at odds with God, would run the other way if Christ showed up, and the are not necessarily feeling any guilt or empty, over their sin?
4. Apply the truth to their situation.
Why not just preach Christ crucified, press the gospel against them, and let the Holy Spirit do the saving work. I don't see the need to change anything for "their situation"
Posted by: jeff | May 26, 2008 at 11:32 PM
3. Think of your audience
Yeah, a majority of them are unconverted, not looking for Christ at all. They are at odds with God, would run the other way if Christ showed up, and the are not necessarily feeling any guilt or empty, over their sin?
4. Apply the truth to their situation.
Why not just preach Christ crucified, press the gospel against them, and let the Holy Spirit do the saving work. I don't see the need to change anything for "their situation"
Posted by: jeff | May 26, 2008 at 11:34 PM
"What Warren has learned about Preaching for Life Change"
3. Change always starts in the mind.
4. To help people change we must change change their beliefs first.
5. Trying to change people's behavior without changing their beliefs is a waste of time.
I don't think RW understands the doctrine of regeneration. Example, C.S. Lewis compared the unregenerated creature to a "pig" that pig has a nature that will always eat 'pig slop', even if there was a steak dinner in front of him. Until you change the unregenerated creature, take out the heart of stone, replace it with a heart of flesh that wants Christ, you have NOTHING, period! EZEK36. So to have some psycho-babble like change this, change in the mind, is useless!
We preach the gospel of Christ crucified, it please God to work in the lives of some people, the Holy Spirit changes the heart, God does the work, not the preachers psyco-methods. It's laid out this way in the bible, we don't need RW's powerpoint of some new Purpose Driven point 1, point 2...
Posted by: jeff | May 27, 2008 at 12:04 AM
Jeff,
I think Warren knows what regeneration is and is not forgetting about the work of the Spirit in the hearts of people. Warren is right about the necessity of changing minds before behavior will change. That is the definition of repentance - a changing of the mind. The NT calls for us again and again to repent - to change our mind - and live for Christ. Warren is simply laying out for pastors a model to help us preach in such a way that brings this to a head. Nothing wrong with that.
But to address your concern, Warren did in point #7, which I noticed you did not copy on your post above. It reads: "7. You Don't Change People's Minds, The "applied word of God" does." So I am not sure why you think Warren doesn't understand regeneration of the work of the Spirit.
peace,
Chad
Posted by: Chad | May 27, 2008 at 08:14 AM
My view of repentance is more than a mind function. To me repentance is a "turning away" from sin, being broken over it, in fact, the repentance to me brings a new relationship to that sin. In other words, just feeling convicted in my mind of my sin is not the same as turning away from it, or being broken. In other words, I had spent many years in my mind knowing my sin was wrong, but had not repented for it. And just because I have repented for it means that I am done with that, it's a contination in repentance for me daily. I think RW view on repentance may be weaker than it should be
Posted by: jeff | May 27, 2008 at 11:04 AM
Jeff,
Again,I, and I believe RW, agrees with you. Repentance by definition is a turning or a changing of the mind. However, the result of such change of the mind is a change in practice - we, as you say, "turn away from sin." Repentance is not necessarily feeling sorry for what you have done, that is contrition or godly sorrow - another thing, but related.
Again, Warren says in point #8: Changing the way I act is the result or fruit of repentance.
Wouldn't you call this a "turning away from sin?" I think it would certainly include that, don't you?
peace,
Chad
Posted by: Chad | May 27, 2008 at 11:28 AM
Chad,
Repentance is a gift of God. On our own we cannot and do not want to repent of our sins. Only by hearing the Law that convicts us and the Gospel that saves are we given the gift of salvation and thus the ability to repent.
Repentance of fruit of salvation not the cause. God first saves us, then we repent of our sins since we are now alive in Christ and no longer dead in our sins. A spiritually dead person cannot repent.
No one can turn away from sin since we have been, are and continually will be sinners, just as Paul wrote in Romans. If we change, it is not the result of our repentance or changing of our minds, buy 100% Holy Spirit. We contribute absolutely nothing to our justification or to our sanctification. All we can do it so mess it up.
Repentance is part of the daily life of a Christian since we sin daily and we need Christ daily.
Posted by: Steve Newell | May 27, 2008 at 03:21 PM
Steve,
Can you please point out where Warren has said something that directly contradicts what you just wrote? Or, what I have said that contradicts that?
Thanks,
Chad
Posted by: Chad | May 27, 2008 at 03:30 PM
In your comment, you stated that changing the way one acts is the fruit of repentance. That places the focus on the individual. There is an assumption that we can actually change ourselves and become less sinful.
A changed life is the result of the Holy Spirit, not of repentance. We are so sinful that we cannot change ourselves.
A Mormon can change their actions and repent of their sins, but that is not the same as Christian repentance. Christian repentance is the acknowledgment of our sinfulness and our desiring of present and eternal damnation. We morn our sinfulness knowing it caused the suffering of Christ for us. We ask for the forgiveness of our sins for Christ' sake. It is the Holy Spirit which changes the person.
A changed life is a subjective measure on true repentance.
Posted by: Steve Newell | May 27, 2008 at 03:50 PM
Steve, you said: In your comment, you stated that changing the way one acts is the fruit of repentance. That places the focus on the individual. There is an assumption that we can actually change ourselves and become less sinful.
Not at all. At least you called it what it is, an assumption. Perhaps it will sharpen the focus a bit if we turn the question to you. Steve, what is the "fruit of repentance"? Does it or does it not INCLUDE the changing of one's actions, mind, etc?
Lastly, you are making it to be about the individual when I (nor Warren) has made it so. Repentance comes via the work of God in us, just as you said. What do you take issue with in either what I have said or what Warren has said in the above post?
Thanks,
Chad
Posted by: Chad | May 27, 2008 at 03:57 PM
Oh, and Steve, just to clarify - I did not say that the fruit of repentance is changing the way I act but Warren did. I just so happen to agree with him.
peace.
Posted by: Chad | May 27, 2008 at 04:03 PM
As part of salvation, we are all changed. The gift of repentance can result in changes in our lives. However, we may not see the changes. If a believer does not see changes in their lives or others do not see changes in the person's life, does that mean that there are no changes? No since we may not see what the Holy Spirit is doing in that person's life.
The way you were writing about repentance made it appear that it is something that we do. Likewise, you made it appear that we can change our own minds, lives, etc. If I am wrong in how I read your comments, then I apologize.
Posted by: Steve Newell | May 27, 2008 at 04:19 PM
Steve, no worries. Just to be clear neither I nor Warren (as far as I can tell) attribute repentance or salvation (and all that entails) with anything we ourselves do or can do or bring to the table. All of this talk about repentance presupposes a work of God in one's life.
With that said, however, I disagree that repentance is something that "may not see" the evidence of in our lives or others. Repentance, by definition, necessitates a changedness in one's life, even if that change is a ceasing a negative way of thinking and/or acting. I would agree with you that regeneration (or being made new) may not show visible signs (at least not immediately) but one who repents is actually DOING something - it is active and lively. To say one has repented implies, by defintion, that one is living and thinking differently than they were prior to repentance.
peace,
Chad
Posted by: Chad | May 27, 2008 at 04:33 PM
Chad,
If a person has an addiction and is repentant of it but cannot change their actions, does that mean their repentance is not valid? I have had this type of discussion with other person on this same question. His issue was porn.
Posted by: Steve Newell | May 27, 2008 at 05:49 PM
Steve,
Good question. I would say that it means their repentance is not yet bearing fruit (keep in mind that this all began with Warren's statement that the fruit of repentance is a change in the way one acts). Yet I would want to say further (as I did earlier) that repentance also entails a change of mind. The person with an addiction may have repented (i.e. he or she has had a change of mind about the actions they are doing as being contrary to the will of God). This change of mind (beliefs?) is the first step to a change of actions. We dont change our actions less we are first convinced that something is true (or in this case, wrong).
But even with this, it is something that would be visible. The Christian struggling with any type of addiction is no longer doing their sin in secret (or for that matter, oblivious that what they are doing is even "wrong") but they now confess their sins to fellow believers and begin to take steps to live in the new reality that is found in Christ Jesus. This may be as simple an act of sharing with a brother in Christ (you, for instance) that there is an "issue." Would an unrepentant person even admit there is an "issue" to be confessed?
peace,
Chad
Posted by: Chad | May 27, 2008 at 06:36 PM