* Note: These are my notes and initial impressions about what I heard at the Purpose Driven Community Gathering. This is NOT NOT NOT my response to what I heard and experienced. My response, if I write one at all, will not come until after I've had time to reflect and process all of the information.
Today, tomorrow, and Thursday I am attending the Purpose Driven Community Gathering. This is an invitation only event and Warren personally invited friend and foe alike.
I am blogging from a table reserved for the media, press and bloggers.
Already, Warren has announced that there will be some important announcements at this conference. One announcement pertains to a new network that will be launching soon called the "P.E.A.C.E. Coalition".
This version of P.E.A.C.E. breaks down this way.
Promote reconciliation (to God & others) and Plant Churches
Equip Servant leaders
Assist the poor
Care for the sick
Educate the next generation
The first session of the conference was about "Personal Spiritual Renewal"
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The second session is about growing a spiritually mature church.
Oddly enough, as one who watches and listens to just about everything Warren says in public, I have heard many many many of the things that Warren has said this morning. I'm thankful for that because I think I'd be crawling out of my skin because of Warren's habit of misquoting the Bible.
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What is most interesting about Warren's lectures is that they have been peppered with information and counter-claims to many of the criticisms leveled against Warren and Saddleback. In a way, Warren has come out swinging.
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Not surprisingly, Warren's reformation of Deeds NOT Creeds is at the core of his definition of Spiritual Growth.
"Maturity is relational not intellectual.""Jesus is the model of maturity."
"It is a myth that you can grow by attending church and listening to sermons."
Warren's primary definition is based upon behavior.
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"Secret #2" in Warren's method of spiritual maturity...
"Spiritual Growth is Intentional""We Grow by Making Commitments" says Warren.
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Warren claims that you have to have a 'process' for moving people from the commitment of "come & see" to the commitment of "Come & Die".
Warren's using a Really bad hermeneutic here.
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What are the tools that Saddleback uses to 'build lives of obedience'?
1. Weekly Commitment Cards - Every sermon has to come down to two words "will you". Cards capture commitments.
2. Covenants - Nehemiah 9:38-10:1 in the Living Bible
3. Message Notes - we forget 90%-95% of what we hear within 72 hours.
Sheeesh! - Does God's Word do anything in Warren's view? When you measure spiritual maturity by behavior and commitment level then it makes sense that these practical tools are being promoted as the answer.
The assumption here is that retention is the key to applying the practical information you're hearing in an law based sermon. If I retain the information then I'll become more obedient or go deeper in my commitment. Therefore, my behavior will change and that equals 'spiritual maturity'.
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Warren likens his systematic incremental process to a Catechism.
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Warren claims that we grow by "good habits" or "spiritual disciplines".
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"Secret #7" - Spiritual Growth is multi-dimensional
Warren claims that it is a myth to believe that "maturity is measured by your Bible knowledge" but then he goes on to completely misquote Titus 2:1. He quoted it from the GW (?) which says, "Tell believers to live the kind of life that goes along with accurate teachings"?
Here's what that verse says in a good translation...Titus 2:1 But as for you, teach what accords with sound doctrine.
I agree with Warren that spiritual maturity is NOT measured by Bible knowledge.
BUT, that means you CAN'T possibly have real spiritual growth occurring without ACCURATE Biblical Teaching. Pastor Warren, Will you please STOP twisting God's Word!
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Unbelievable!!
Warren just claimed that Matt 11:28 is proof that Jesus was about meeting people's felt needs.
Here is what the passage says:
Matt. 11:28 “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.
That passage is not about felt needs. It is about our need for the Gospel and our need for a savior.
Sheesh.
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Warren just announced his new 40 Days campaign. It will be called the 40 Days of Love. It will be about relational renewal.
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Afternoon Panel Discussion on Best Practices for Effective Evangelism
James Meeks, Lee McFarland, Miles McPherson, Bob Roberts, Nelson Searcy, Mark Batterson
Was greatly disappointed to hear T.D. Jakes mentioned by one of the panelists as if he were a Christian brother. (Jakes denies the doctrine of the Trinity)
Greatly disappointed that the idea that Church is a gathering of believers to receive God's word is selfish and wrong. We've got to stop doing church and be the church. This is the exact opposite error of a church that only delivers dry theological lectures. (Bifurcation fallacy).
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I do like the panelists passion for reaching the lost and their practical ideas for doing it. But, are these 'unchurched' people being reached with the message of Christ Crucified for our Sins, or are they being reached with a different gospel of a 'changed' or 'purpose-driven' life?
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This conference features the EXACT same theology that I ran into at the Evolve 08 conference. The problem with this theology, regardless of how well meaning it is, is the fact that it has the wrong material and formal principles.
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Thinking out loud: This feels like a movement that is 'in part' a reaction against legalistic Biblle thumping American evangelicalism.
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Perry Noble is on the next panel. They are speaking on the subject of "Best Practices for Deepening Fellowship".
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Afternoon Panel Discussion on Best Practices for Deepening Fellowship
Floyd Flake, Ray Johnston, Perry Noble, Larry Stockstill, Ron Sylvia
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Floyd Flake intro - I have no idea what he just said means. Transformational? Empowering? Missional? Huh?
But Dr. Floyd said that his wife the a co-pastor of his church. (Doesn't scripture forbid that?)
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Ray Johnston - literally said that he was taught that if you are not in a small group you are not obeying the Lord. Wow! I remember when small groups first came on the scene. It was called the meta-church. This happened during my lifetime and now these guys are claiming your are sinning if you are NOT in a small group.
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Perry Noble - Definition of small groups "connecting dysfunctional people with dysfunctional people".
Noble, has made the MOST sense out of anyone I've heard today. Oddly enough what he said resonated with me.
Said Noble, "We trust the Holy Spirit to save people, how come we don't trust the Holy Spirit to build Christian community?" "Christian community and fellowship cannot be forced."
Hmmmmm.... I agree.
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Disturbing quote from Ray Johnston
"There is a difference between a 'growing Christian' and an Authentic 'Christ Follower'"
Is this the new system of two-tiered Christianity?? I remember the Nazarenes teaching me about 'second blessing holiness'. In their way of thinking there were "ordinary Christians" (bottom rung Christians) and those who've experienced the 'second blessing' (those who are authentic and sold out Christians). Boy, that concept created all kinds of goofy pharisees who thought they were better than you because they were more mature than you, more 'spiritual' than you and more blessed than you.
This two-tiered view of Christianity nearly caused me to walk away from Christianity.
It would be interesting if you provide the biblical basis on which Pastor Warren and Saddleback base this program. For example, the "P" places the wrong emphasis. We cannot reconcile ourselves with God. God reconciles himself with us through the Cross. If this point is not stressed, then there is no true reconciliation between God and Man and we remain enemies of God.
Posted by: Steve Newell | May 20, 2008 at 03:09 PM
Glad I'm not in a purpose-driven joint anymore. I can just see the pastor in that church salivating now.
Posted by: bigbenaugust | May 20, 2008 at 04:43 PM
Chris:
I've been hearing about all of the invites to this event for the past week and have wondered what's really behind it all. Is Warren finally starting to see that the blog world is a great detriment to his methods, and this is his way of doing damage control? Surely he's not naive enough to imagine that he's going to change the minds of people like you and Pastor Bob DeWaay who is also there and has written a book against Warren's teachings. Or maybe Warren thinks he's going to shower you with gifts and kill you with kindness (so to speak) to the point where you are going to think of him as "Uncle Rick" from now on; somebody you just can't speak poorly about. I just don't know, but will be interested in your opinions. It just doesn't make sense.
--Jim
Posted by: Jim from OldTruth.com | May 20, 2008 at 05:22 PM
Jim,
I think Warren is VERY shrewd. I'm attending this conference on HIS dime and HIS invitation.
Yet, this event has only re-enforced my critiques of Warren's theology and methods.
The question that remains to be seen is whether Warren will seriously weigh the valid Biblical criticisms or theology and methods and change or if his only intention is to just kill his critics with kindness (which is not a realistic long term strategy for silencing your critics).
We'll have to wait and see on that.
Posted by: Chris Rosebrough | May 20, 2008 at 05:45 PM
OK, let me summarize my sense of this:
His invitation is a mafioso-style kiss for critics suggesting that they better be loving, and that they're being lovingly monitored (Hi Mr Abanes! Yes you. Pssst....Scientology pays more to monitor critics.)
So it looks like Warren is about to "twist n teach" his followers his plan to love the world and to believe that anyone critical of him and the "peace, love and purpose" movement to merge the church with global politics must not be loving. I love it!
Posted by: Joey D | May 20, 2008 at 06:45 PM
I think if anyone personally or publicly changes as a result of the conference it will be those that attend and not Warren who has planned the event and orchestrated their attendance.
S.S.
Posted by: Steve Svendsen | May 20, 2008 at 08:09 PM
I am going to follow your posts with interest.
I have been to Saddleback's Purpose Driven Church Conference. I listened to Warren's preaching seminar. I want to see how well our opinions track.
Posted by: J. K. Jones | May 20, 2008 at 09:39 PM
Praise God we have an eyewitness to the events as they unfold. Thank you for taking the time to go. I feel for both those who refused to go and those who are going and I sympathize deeply with both decisions. Are you going to the private meeting afterward also Chris?
Posted by: Paula | May 21, 2008 at 12:08 AM
Chris,
You are a real trooper. I don't know how you do it. I couldn't take more than a couple of hours worth of a 'Law Fest' like the one you are attending.
I actually did go to a Lutheran 'Law Fest' a few weeks back for the Pacifica Synod (ELCA) bi-annual meeting in Irvine, CA.
Just listening to all the 'doing' and 'ought be doing' wore me out.
It wasn't a complete waste of time, though... there was a box lunch included.
Hang in there, Chris..."this too shall pass."
- Steve Martin San Clemente, CA
Posted by: Steve Martin | May 21, 2008 at 03:22 AM
Chris,
I check in here nearly every day. Sometimes I wonder why there's nothing to read, but when there is then I can understand. Thank you for your blog, and I'll be praying for you during this conference.
Posted by: Becky | May 21, 2008 at 05:04 AM
Chris,
The issues many have with Rick Warren are obvious and continue to expand. But I do not understand how you and others can objectively claim that his motives for showing some level of kindness are as sinister as you claim. Do you have empirical evidence that reveals the self serving motives you and Jim have openly ascribed to Warren's acts of kindness?
Are you saying that those with whom we differ substantially on doctrine and methodology can never be sincere in kindness? And can you show me where you have accurately examined his heart in this matter? We can examine doctrine, but when someone reaches out to his critics/enemies in an act of kindness only God can know the heart in that matter.
I find your characterization of "his dime and his invitation" as "shrewd" as judgmentalism and unbiblical. And the demeaning "Uncle Rick" ascertion that attributes everything to a master plan to persuade people is unfounded. All of us attempt to persuade people to our views, he is no different. We should remain vigilant against drifting into self righteousness when dealing with doctrinal issues.
He may be doctrinally off base but only God can judge motives and heart. You should retract that assumption. Rick Warren's invitation to pay for his critics to come was a Christian gesture that isn't seen in many circles. It should not be the basis for doctrinal influence, however, it cannot be dismissed on its face as a cold hearted manipulative strategy, only God can make an accurate assessment of people's hearts including ours.
Posted by: Rick Frueh | May 21, 2008 at 06:19 AM
Rick,
When I say that Warren is shrewd it is not being judgmental. I think Warren is a very very smart man and he using his resources to invite his critics to this event. It's a brilliant and shrewd move. I will be meeting Warren face to face tomorrow afternoon. Until then, I don't know what is actually on his mind other than he is being very open and very generous.
Matt. 10:16 I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves.
Posted by: Chris Rosebrough | May 21, 2008 at 09:37 AM
Rick Warren is up to something. I would not be surprised if he sued his crtics or attempted some other means to silence or intimidate them. Having been ejected from a Purpose Driven Church and seen the techniques used by Warren's disciples, nothing he will do would surprise me. Please be extremely careful, Chris. Meek as doves, but wise as serpents.....
Posted by: Peter Wiggin | May 21, 2008 at 10:48 AM
Just thought of something -- maybe this personal meeting with Rick is his attempt at initiating Matthew 18 (obviously in error but...)
Posted by: Paula | May 21, 2008 at 11:24 AM
'Perry Noble - Definition of small groups "connecting dysfunctional people with dysfunctional people".'
Is this what Dr. MacArthur calls a "pooling of ignorance"?
Posted by: Robert Warren | May 21, 2008 at 12:20 PM
Oh one more thing:
"Jesus is the model of maturity."
So they wouldn't object to you taking a cat o nine tails and driving some moneychangers out?
Posted by: Paula | May 21, 2008 at 12:51 PM
Rick warren is antichrist, and if it wasn't for the fact that he is not all that bright, I think he could even pass for THE Antichrist.
Posted by: Lee | May 21, 2008 at 02:36 PM
"Boy, that concept created all kinds of goofy pharisees who thought they were better than you because they were more mature than you, more 'spiritual' than you and more blessed than you."
Sort of like...hmmmmm...a lot of the people who comment here and, to the greater extent, on A Little Leaven?
Posted by: Sandusky | May 23, 2008 at 12:07 PM
"I do like the panelists passion for reaching the lost and their practical ideas for doing it. But, are these 'unchurched' people being reached with the message of Christ Crucified for our Sins, or are they being reached with a different gospel of a 'changed' or 'purpose-driven' life?"
One has to wonder. And if they themselves were believing that gospel-not-of-works-and-more-and-more-commitments-and-vows, would they come across the same way themselves? I'm not saying that people who believe the true gospel don't have passion -- but would these same people, if they believed the gospel to be the real one, not the social gospel version, would *they* be moved to preach it? Or would they be bored with it? I think the latter. In fact I am sure of it, because they have, to combat their boredom with the true gospel, altered the message to something they can get excited about.
Posted by: Paula | May 23, 2008 at 06:06 PM
Chris, you wrote: "Boy, that concept created all kinds of goofy pharisees who thought they were better than you because they were more mature than you, more 'spiritual' than you and more blessed than you."
Sandusky mentioned this as well. Can you comment on your own words as they relate to your other website, A Little Leaven? As I read the comments that are posted there, a majority of them tend towards the "Thank the Lord I'm not like those idiot apostates" variety. Wittingly or, more likely, unwittingly, I feel like A Little Leaven has become a place that breeds these "goofy pharisees" whom you are concerned with. I'd like to hear your reaction...
Posted by: Plankman | May 27, 2008 at 01:10 PM
R. Abanes has said of this meeting,”I applaud Dewaay for his candor, honesty, integrity, and spirit of genuine care/concern, and openness to hearing what Warren actually believes theologically. I am hoping that many individuals will see that this is all little more than an issue of ministry philosophy, rather than the emergence of some bizarre Warren Smith-esk, conspiratorial, one-world, New Age religion with Warren playing the lead Pide Piper!”
I am a good friend of Pastor DeWaay and attend his church. Bob DeWaay’s position on Rick Warren has not changed. Bob Dewaay never hated Rick Warren, he had concerns about his teaching - a ministry philisophy that doesn’t preach the gospel or confess Christ. THis is not a minor issue of insignificance. Bob’s concern about Rick Warren was and still is that Rick Warren does not preach the gospel, not that he doesn’t believe it. Here is a statement prepared by Pastor DeWaay concerning the issues raised in this blog. K. Jentoft
May 31, 2008
I wrote my book, Redefining Christianity, assuming that Rick Warren actually believes the Saddleback Church’s statement of faith, but that he refuses to preach it because he wants to be popular with the world and grow his movement. I still think that could still be true—I give him the benefit of the doubt.
At the Saddleback Church conference he was speaking of winning souls for Christ and talking about his father’s legacy of building churches and winning souls. More than likely he believes Baptist doctrine. But along the way he was derailed by reading the church growth theory of Donald McGavran. While in seminary I studied under a disciple of McGavran. McGavran’s book was required reading. His philosophy hinges on this idea: “people do not become Christian for theological reasons, but for sociological ones.”
Rick Warren believed McGavran and set out to study people to find out what makes them tick so he could get them into church — thus “Saddleback Sam.” Purpose Driven is a franchise system to multiply this idea into other churches. Warren tells pastors that they do not have to change any doctrine to join his movement. The reason for that is that doctrine becomes unimportant because it is no longer taught. I don’t think Rick Warren changed his Baptist doctrine either; he just doesn’t allow it to determine what he teaches and what he does. When we met that is what I challenged him about.
So I have not moved in my beliefs nor have I changed my position on any doctrines I have preached.
I will not allow myself to be pitted against any of Warren’s critics. I read Warren Smith’s book and spoke with him on the phone. He is a wonderful brother. The New Age implications are in Rick Warren’s movement and are helping lead toward a One World church. But because he has publicly made statements besides his statement of faith that he believes there is a literal hell and that people without Christ will go there, I don’t believe Rick Warren is a true New Age believer, and neither does Warren Smith. Warren Smith simply says there are New Age implications to what Rick Warren is doing, and I agree with him.
Tomorrow morning I will make a statement clarifying what I mean when I said that we did not have theological disagreements in our meeting. Rick Warren did not disagree with my positions on doctrine in our meeting. But he did not comment on everything I said. Please read my book, because in it I point out that Rick Warren privately affirms orthodox Christian theology—he did so again in our presence. So this is not news worthy.
To set the record straight, for those who think I am suddenly okay with Rick Warren – I am not. I asked him to preach Christ and honor the idea of scripture alone – and I pointed out that he cannot have a “reformation” based on general revelation.
These are huge issues and he did not say he was going to change anything—but he did not disagree. Do Warren’s supporters really think that having an orthodox theology in private is all that God expects of a preacher? Do they think we should not hold Rick Warren accountable to sola scriptura? Do they think that we can have any old ministry philosophy even if doing so totally changes the definition of the church and her message from how the Bible defines them?
I challenge Rick Warren’s supporters to step up to the plate and demand that Rick Warren repent, as I requested him to do in my book. That statement is posted at http://www.twincityfellowship.com/special/appeal.pdf Otherwise they have no business claiming that I agree with them.
Bob DeWaay
Posted by: K Jentoft | June 01, 2008 at 07:21 AM
Though I appreciate Bob DeWaay's candor I disagree his starting point. In part, Warren and McGavran are right - people don't become Christians for theological reasons, per se. Christianity is not about mental assent to a set of doctrines. It is about a relationship with a SOMEONE - a person, Jesus Christ. Therefore, it is far more social than it is theological.
Also, Bob asks: Do they think we should not hold Rick Warren accountable to sola scriptura?
No, we do not. Does Jesus hold us accountalbe to sola scriptura? Sola scriptura has so much baggage attached to it that it is impossible to even know what Bob means when he says this. What most people mean by this is not that they should be guided by scripture alone but rather by what I deem is the proper interpretation of that scripture alone.
peace,
Chad
Posted by: Chad | June 01, 2008 at 09:39 AM
From Bob DeWaay's statement: "Tomorrow morning I will make a statement clarifying what I mean when I said that we did not have theological disagreements in our meeting."
I find it odd that Bob would meet with Rick Warren, say they have no real theological differences, and then suddenly release a statement that he will clarify what he meant.
Huh?
Why does Bob need to clarify? And why won't he just go ahead and clarify it right now? And why did he "misspeak" in the first place by saying that there were no theological differences? Isn't Bob intelligent enough (and well-practiced as a speaker) to say what he means?
Sorry, but this smacks as the same thing that I fear with happen with Mr. Rosebrough: After their meeting, Bob and Chris realize that Warren's not quite so "left field" after all. Although they disagree on ministry philosophy, they realize that their foundational theological beliefs are the same. So Bob shares that. And Chris thanks Rick and alludes to, perhaps, a more agreeable tone in discussion.
But, now, here comes the legalism patrol...and they are chomping at the bit and tearing Bob and Chris apart and questioning their sincerity and salvation. "Why the change of heart?" they cry. "Don't you remember, Rick Warren is leading people to hell!"
And so Bob releases a statement saying, "Whoops, you know, I mean, yeah...that Warren guy is basically the head of a new one-world religion. That's what I meant."
Same old, same old. We don't live in a spirit of faith and humility. Rather, the loud and the angry (on both sides) shout at each other, raising their voices and trying to gain control, power, and authority.
Meanwhile...the Kingdom of God grows like a mustard seed.
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