Rick Warren Purpose Driven Critique - Is Repentance the Central Message of the New Testament?

One of the statements that surprised me the most at the Purpose Driven Community Gathering was when Rick Warren said that he believed that “Repentance was the central message of the New Testament”. Even more shocking was hearing Warren claim that the primary goal of all of his sermons was ‘repentance’.

Up until I heard Warren say these words I believed that Warren’s sermons were completely devoid of repentance. The reason why I believed that is because in all the sermons I have heard Warren preach (I listen to them all), I couldn’t recall as single time where I had heard him say the word ‘repent’ or ‘repentance’. Warren’ sermons always seem chock full of practical advice and simple applications but I can’t recall the last time I heard Warren rail against sin and call people to repent of their sins and believe the gospel for the forgiveness of sins.

Well, it turns out that there is a reason why I never heard Warren say those words. At the conference Warren clearly stated that he always preaches for repentance but that he does so in a way whereby he doesn’t actually say the word “repentance”.

This revelation tweeked my view of Warren and his preaching philosophy. Where I once thought Warren’s sermons were all practical self-help feel good sermons, I now believe that Warren primarily preaches the law and only on the rarest of rare occasions does he preach the gospel.

Definition of the Gospel – many people have a difficult time defining the gospel. Thankfully, 1 Corinthians 15: 1-4 gives us a clear and concise definition of the gospel. Here is how scripture defines the gospel: “Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, 2 and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain. 3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures.”

In his lecture on Purpose-Driven Preaching Warren made it unmistakably clear that the goal of Purpose-Driven Preaching is obedience. This is why Warren’s sermons are heavy on application and practical ‘how to’ information. In classic Warren sound-bite style he claimed that “the problem with a lot of preaching is that it produces learners instead of doers.” One of Warren’s recurring mantra’s was that Christians already know more information than they are putting into practice. Said Warren, “Too many people are informed but not transformed.”

The ahah moment came for me when Warren emphatically claimed “THE central message of the New Testament is repentance.” It was at that moment that I fully understood that Rick Warren is a pietist and that the preaching philosophy employed by Warren is nothing less than the 21st Century incarnation of Wesleyan Methodism. (I mean that in the nicest way possible). In other words, with the goal of PD preaching being ‘obedience’ the only thing you could count on hearing Sunday after Sunday is God’s Law, do this, or don’t do that, along with practical information (methods) on how to do this or don’t do that. The underlying assumption is that by applying the information or methods given in any particular sermon a person will become ‘more obedient’ to God.

Armed with this insight I was able to discuss this directly with Warren.

In my face to face meeting with Pastor Rick I directly challenged him on his claim that repentance is the central message of the New Testament. I told Warren that his claim was inaccurate because it was only HALF TRUE.

(BTW, I was not being unloving or unkind in telling Warren that he was wrong because he was only half right. Warren himself uses this exact same argument against some of his critics on page 234 of the Purpose Driven Church.)

I then pointed Warren to Luke chapter 24:46-47. This text states.

[Jesus] said to them, “Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer and on the third day rise from the dead, 47 and that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem.

Jesus himself, in Luke’s version of the ‘great commission’ instructs the disciples to preach a twin message of repentance AND the forgiveness of sins in Jesus’ name. I pointed this out to Pastor Warren and told him that what is conspicuously missing from his sermons (I listen to them all) is the forgiveness of sins in Jesus name. Furthermore, I gave him examples from his own sermons where he gave practical ‘how to’ information but never once dealt with the most important ‘application’ of how Jesus Christ’s death on the cross applies to me and how Jesus Christ forgives me of the all the times when I have sinned and not been obedient to God.

The problem with Purpose-Driven Preaching is that it emphasizes ‘naked obedience’ but the message of ‘Christ crucified for sins’ is almost always omitted.

This approach blurs law and gospel and makes it appear that we are made right before God by our own efforts.

Gal. 3:3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

Why is Purpose-Driven Preaching Dangerous?

When was the last time that you told your spouse that you loved him or her? If your marriage is anything like mine then you’d say that you constantly tell your partner that you love them many times a day. To not do so would be unthinkably cruel.

Imagine what your marriage would be like if you told your wife or husband, “I told you once that I loved you and I don’t feel any reason to keep on telling you that. In fact, you should just assume that I love you and if anything changes I’ll let you know.”

If I had said that to my wife then I would be a divorced man. The fact is, telling my wife that I love her and hearing her say that she loves me is vital to the health of our marriage. When I tell my wife I love her I am not conveying useless and redundant information. Instead, I am again summing up the vows I made to her on our wedding day and letting her know that despite the fact that we’ve been through better and worse and have been richer and poorer and that despite all the disagreements and challenges that we’ve faced and struggled through that I still passionately love her and no one else. It’s not mere information that I am conveying to my wife when I tell her I love her. I am sharing my heart with her. My marriage could not survive without it and neither could yours.

What holds true for a marriage also holds true in our relationship with God. I need to hear that God loves me and forgives me constantly. This is not mere information that we are talking about. This is one critical facet of Christian preaching that cannot be neglected because all of us still sin, daily, hour by hour, minute by minute and trying harder to be more obedient and sinning less cannot and does not absolve us of our sins nor does it quiet our guilty consciences. Even though I have been a Christian nearly all of my life (I am 40 years old) I still need to hear God tell me that He loves me and forgives me of my sins. I need to hear this gospel message just as often as I need to hear my wife tell me that she loves me.

If I do not hear the gospel but instead only hear that I must try harder or apply certain steps in order to be more obedient or change my life then I am likely to despair and begin to believe that God only loves me based upon my performance and despair and think that God doesn’t love me anymore because of my lack of obedience. Even worse, I may become self-deceived like the Pharisees and think that I am more favored by God because of my better obedience. (That is not the Christian faith. That is self-righteousness.)

Oddly enough Rick Warren perfectly understands the importance of stating something over and over. In the Purpose-Driven Church on page 117 Warren said:

“Don’t assume that a single sermon on your church’s purposes will permanently set the direction of your church. Don’t suppose that by printing your purposes in the bulletin everyone has learned them, or even read them! One widely known law of advertising is that a message must be communicated seven times before it sinks in.

At Saddleback we use as many different channels as we can think of to keep our purposes before our church family.

In my face to face meeiting with Pastor Warren I challenged him to preach the Gospel, the message of the forgiveness of sins in Jesus name, every single Sunday. Why? Not only is this what Jesus' told us to preach, but I understand the importance of stating something over and over. In fact, I think it is utterly tragic and borderline criminal of Warren to not be as committed to over communicating the Gospel as he is to over communicating his church’s purposes. Imagine if that passage of the PDC read:

Don’t assume that a single sermon on the gospel will permanently fix the gospel in people’s minds and hearts. Don’t suppose that by printing the gospel in the bulletin that everyone will understand the depths of Christ’s love and mercy to them. At Saddleback we use as many different channels as we can think of to keep the gospel before our church family.”

Before I publish my next installment on my Purpose-Driven critique I invite you to listen to what I consider to be the most tragic sermon I have ever heard Rick Warren preach.

The title of the Sermon is “Breaking Free From Persistent Temptation”.

You can view the sermon notes by clicking here.

The tragedy of this sermon is that Warren shares the private struggles, sins and temptations of some of those who attend Saddleback. You can hear and feel their despair. Yet, never once in the sermon does Warren comfort these people with the good news of the forgiveness of sins won for them by Christ on the Cross. Instead, Warren gives 7 applications for not giving in to sin. Warren only preached ‘repentance’ but was only half right because he omitted the forgiveness of sins in Jesus name. Even more tragic is the fact that this is the typical Warren sermon.

So as I told Warren to his face, I will now say again. Pastor Warren you are wrong about repentance being the central message of the New Testament because you are only half right. Repent and preach BOTH repentance and the forgiveness of sins in Jesus name as our Lord has instructed.

Comments

[Josh]

Wow. Thank you, Chris. Amen.

[James]

Insightful; this is how he gets to where he preaches, um, odd things and generates so much vitriol here. It's like having an injured limb; the incorrect operation of the limb affects the whole body (message) and distorts it, maybe even causing injuries elsewhere because of the compensation.

Thank you for so reasonable an evaluation. It's critical to understand how others get to their way of thinking.

[Dan at Necessary Roughness]

Did he even look like he was pondering your criticism?

Thanks!

[Richard Abanes]

Chris: The underlying assumption is that by applying the information or methods given in any particular sermon a person will become ‘more obedient’ to God.

RA: Allow me a few observations.

I think you're interpreting Warren's words through your sensitivity as a Lutheran to anything that even hints of the law. You see as pushing law even if it is merely loving instructions on how to live a more godly life, which of course, pleases God).

As you yourself told me, Lutherans are so wary of anything that hints of the law, that a problem with Lutherans is carnal living and full blown antinomianism. Consequently, I think we have a case here where you are hearing Warren through Lutheran ears, and understandably feel uncomfortable.

But Warren's weekly teachings on the Christian lifestyle and spiritual living are NOT linked in ANY way to salvation or trying to work one's way into God's grace. His teachings are offered as help for Christian's who WANT TO KNOW how to love lives more lovingly, humbly, responsibly, obediently, and biblically. It has NOTHING to do with salvation.

If you must categorize such teachings, it would be better to place them under sanctification, not justification. NO ONE is hearing them or taking them in connection to justification. Nor are such teachings accepted as a means by which grace is imparted or worked up from God. This is a fundamental misunderstand that I see you still have -- as I mentioned to you personally.

You might be hearing "law," "law," "law," "law." But the non-Lutherans listening to Warren hear "help," "direction," "ideas," "guidance." "biblical principles."

I again mention, as I did in one of your previous threads, the teachings of Raul Ries of Calvary Chapel. I have sat under BOTH Raul and Warren. And I can tell you from personal experience (and from the perspective of an apologist), Raul Ries is someone who teaches works.

Under Raul, if you don't live righteously enough to keep your salvation -- you lose it.

Under Raul, if you happen to fall into sin when the rapture hits, then you get left behind and must have your head chopped off in the tribulation to get to heaven.

See what I mean?

Warren, however, teaches the perseverance of the saints (the "P" in TULIP), and that salvation comes as a free gift of God through Christ's finished work on the cross. You cannot add ANYTHING to it.

See Warren's comments here under - Rick Warren preaches Salvation

Now, when it comes to repentance, you are mistakenly equating that with what Warren preaches weekly in his topical messages. And you misunderstand Warren - I say this as a Saddleback member and former staffer -- when he says REPENTANCE is central to the NT. You are hearing that through your Lutheran perspective and somehow associating it too closely with his messages. REPENTANCE to Warren is DEFINED as a mere change of mind (as the Greek word indicates), this change of mind then results in a change of life.

For unbelievers, it is changing your mind about God, which results in acceptance of Jesus Christ - salvation.

For believers, it is changing your mind about a sin you are in, which results in stopping that sin -- sanctification.

Please don't conflate the two. They are very different things.

Several statements on repentance can be found here in this collection I have made under: Repentance and Rick Warren

The love of God and is complete forgiveness through no works of ours is repeated over and over and over again. To be honest, so much so that I have found some people don't understand well enough how important obedience is to God. This is the actual problem at Saddleback if you want an insider's perspective -- not some kind of over-emphasis on law.

Ironically, more than half of Warren's critics actually condemn Warren for NOT teaching repentance AT ALL! That is the very opposite of what you are saying here. Don't you not find that a little odd?

R. Abanes.

[CS]

Richard:

"You might be hearing "law," "law," "law," "law." But the non-Lutherans listening to Warren hear "help," "direction," "ideas," "guidance." "biblical principles.""

Actually, as a non-Lutheran, I'm hearing "law," "law," "law," here, too. It took me a long while to figure out what I was hearing, that didn't click with my mind, but Chris has summed it up pretty elegantly, and I agree with his assertion that this preaching is about the law and not about grace.

When the Bible is treated more as a how-to manual of advice, as Warren does in his preaching, then deviations from that are seen as failure. For example, if there was a sermon about spending money wisely, and the emphasis was on how to do so, then someone who does not spend the money wisely has gone against those precepts and failed. This sets the person up as someone whose measure of faith is measured by their obedience, whereas obedience should instead be a response to the grace offered by Jesus Christ.

I'll agree, it seems so subtle, but then I see people who say, "We've tithed, done everything according to what the pastor said to do, and now our child has died! What did we do wrong?" And in those instances I look back to this sort of teaching and now understand why they have this view on things.

--
CS

[Richard Abanes]

CS: I see people who say, "We've tithed, done everything according to what the pastor said to do, and now our child has died! What did we do wrong?"

RA: This is a COMPLETELY different issue that has nothing to do with salvation. This raises another topic that I, myslef, have a problem with when it comes to Warren's teachings -- i.e., an overly simplistic outlining of what can be expected in a Christians' life. But as I said, tis is an entirely different issue.

RAbanes

[Ross]

RA: You see as pushing law even if it is merely loving instructions on how to live a more godly life, which of course, pleases God).

Ross: I'm curious. Do you live a godly life which pleases God?

[Rick Frueh]

" Do you live a godly life which pleases God?"

Sometimes.

[Richard Abanes]

Ross: I'm curious. Do you live a godly life which pleases God?

RA: I echo RF. I try.

I would imagine that sometimes he's pleased, sometimes he's not so pleased. But through it all, his grace is sufficient, and where sin abounds, so much more that grace. And also, through it all, his love rests upon me because I am his child. And nothing can separate me form his love (Romans 8:34-39). And I rest in the confidence of his promise that if I confess my sins, he is faithful and just to forgive me (1 John 1:9).

RAbanes

[Ross]

I'm sorry but I should have been clearer and stated that that was a "yes" or "no" question.

Be encouraged. Hear the Father say "This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased." Know that this godly life that pleases God has been lived for you by Christ in your place. Understand that without faith it is impossible to please God since it is through faith alone that we are united to Christ. Through faith alone his perfect life, death, and resurrection are imputed to us. Christ has become TO US wisdom from God, righteousness and SANCTIFICATION.

[Rick Frueh]

Oh you're soooo systematically resplendent. Hold on, let me get a notepad and pen.

"Through faith alone his perfect life, death, and resurrection are imputed to us."

Wow, who knew?

[Richard Abanes]

ROSS: Hear the Father say "This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased." Know that this godly life that pleases God has been lived for you by Christ in your place. Understand that without faith it is impossible to please God since it is through faith alone that we are united to Christ. Through faith alone his perfect life, death, and resurrection are imputed to us. Christ has become TO US wisdom from God, righteousness and SANCTIFICATION.

RA: No argument from me. I agree 100%. Ok. Fine. Perfectly said. I agree. What's the point? When God looks at me he sees Jesus, whose righteousness was imparted to me, thus justifying me via an external forensic act on God's part. Clear enough?

RAbanes

[Tom H.]

I think I may be misunderstanding the blog a little....at least I hope so.....

If I was pastor a church the size of Saddleback, having the gospel message each week would be a must. There are different ways and oppurtunities to accomplish this message especially when you do not know every single person in the crowd and where they are coming from. Even then, the reminder of this grace is an invitation to worship for the gift we have recieved.

That said, I do not think it would be fair or even wise to take this to the extreme (as it appears to do in the blog) and say we should only be preaching the gospel and neglect disciplship preaching. It only takes a casual look at the preaching and teaching of Jesus, Paul, Peter, James, and the like to see there must be a balance.

From the extreme, it seems Rev. Warren is being held at times to the standard of the author and commenters instead of the Scripture. I don't mean that in a mean way, especially since I just wrote a blog celebrating Chris' attitude towards his discussion manner. I mean it as an observation to ponder.

Again, maybe I'm missing something in the heart of the text.

[Ross]

Rick and Richard,

Once again I apologize. I shouldn't have gotten involved in this discussion. I wasn't trying to debate anyone. I was simply trying to encourage Christian brothers (including myself) in the gospel. I'll refrain from posting anymore. God bless you both.

[Douglas]

A quick, basic transcript from the first couple of minutes of that audio by Rick Warren:

"Good morning everybody. If you take out your message notes. Last week I did a message on how God heals your hidden wounds and I invited you to share confidentially with me and with Pastor Bob Baker and Pastor John Baker and our counseling and our Celebrate Recovery ministries any secret burden you're carrying, any hurts any sin any regrets that you just needed to get off your chest. I spent the greater part of this week reading these and praying for these because hundreds even thousands of you turned in requests and prayers and I kept seeing certain things over and over, over and over people saying I just can't break free from this. And so I decided that the message series I had planned to start this week was not the right one that God wanted to go with, look at, but we should continue on in the series that we began to look at last week and so Pastor Tom and I and Pastor Doug over the next several weeks are going to go through a series where we are gonna call "Breaking Free" and we're going to continue in it over all up to Easter we're gonna look at seven of the most common problems that people deal with."

I see it clearly, Rick Warren goes to God's word to back up his messages rather than going to God's word to preach God's message. He has used hundreds if not thousands of Saddleback members confidential confessions that he has got them to fill out, spending most of the week reading them and then formulate his messages based upon that instead of looking intently into God's word for what God has to say. Rick Warren is no different than a Roman Catholic priest. Did he confidently discuss all those sins and faults and failings and so forth of the members with all those other Pastors of his and the Celebrate Recovery team and the counseling team? What does Rick Warren do with all those thousands of confessions, does he store them away in the data bank of Saddleback's computer system so that he can retrieve them any time he wants to quote some facts and figures? And oh what power and absolute control Rick Warren is gaining for himself, power and control over all those people under his Purpose Driven Program, world wide now. Frightening.

Rick Warren's teaching is truly frightening and not in a godly manner either.

I will never join the Purpose Driven Movement, ever.

[Richard Abanes]

D: I see it clearly, Rick Warren goes to God's word to back up his messages rather than going to God's word to preach God's message....

RA: how you can take a heartfelt message that from a pastor who is concerned for people emotionally hurting in his flock, and twist/pervert it into something terribly negative is beyond sad...it's tragic. You are looking to find evil in Warren. You are pressing to turn what is good into what is bad; what is light into what is dark.

__________
D: He has used hundreds if not thousands of Saddleback members confidential confessions that he has got them to fill out, spending most of the week reading them and then formulate his messages based upon that instead of looking intently into God's word for what God has to say.

RA: It is just sick and disgusting, imho, what you're doing here. I'm almost speechless. Those who shared their stories did so, knowing that they would be read by Rick, Pastor Bob Baker, Pastor John Baker, the counseling team. You make it into something ugly, when in reality, it is Warren seeking to reach out and known the individual trials some of his sheep are enduring. You and others talk about the pain, oh the pain, of those hurt by Saddleback and Warren. But then, when it comes to others who are in pain, those whom Rick is trying to help by addressing from the pulpit the issues with which they are struggling, you condemn his loving actions. This is unreal to me - and grievous.

_______
D: Rick Warren is no different than a Roman Catholic priest. Did he confidently discuss all those sins and faults and failings and so forth of the members with all those other Pastors of his and the Celebrate Recovery team and the counseling team? What does Rick Warren do with all those thousands of confessions, does he store them away in the data bank of Saddleback's computer system so that he can retrieve them any time he wants to quote some facts and figures?

RA: You are being really nasty, really hurtful, and really mean. This is Jesus Christ to you? This is 1 Cor. 13? This is your idea of Chris's call for gentleness and respect?

Dude.....

RAbanes

[Anita]

RA: But Warren's weekly teachings on the Christian lifestyle and spiritual living are NOT linked in ANY way to salvation or trying to work one's way into God's grace. His teachings are offered as help for Christian's who WANT TO KNOW how to love lives more lovingly, humbly, responsibly, obediently, and biblically. It has NOTHING to do with salvation.
If you must categorize such teachings, it would be better to place them under sanctification, not justification. NO ONE is hearing them or taking them in connection to justification. Nor are such teachings accepted as a means by which grace is imparted or worked up from God. This is a fundamental misunderstand that I see you still have -- as I mentioned to you personally.

Please Mr. Abanes, don't say that NO ONE is hearing weekly teachings on "right living" and not concluding that it is connected to salvation. People DO, tragically, conclude that very thing - I know because my husband was one of them. He grew up hearing "helpful" sermons about how to be more loving, humble, responsible and obedient and because he couldn't live up to God's high, holy standard he concluded that he was not truly saved. His exact words to me were: "In my case, I guess salvation didn't stick".

Please, please do not try to diminish what is a real tragedy: preaching that causes terrified sinners to despair and conclude that salvation is not for them. I'm sorry, but for the life of me I can't understand why you would attempt to defend such a thing.

[Anita]

And btw, my husband finally "got it" when he heard the GOSPEL preached week after week for about 5 years in a Lutheran church.

[duane]

Great post. Having just preached through Romans I fully confirm what Chris is saying. We entered chapter 12 2 months ago and move into chapter 13 this week and one thing I have made clear to the congregation is that without Romans 1-11 there is no hope for our obedience to the exhortations in chapters 12-15. We must live our lives in view of the mercies of God (i.e. the gospel!)

As pastor's every time we instruct our congregations to "do something" we should always remind them why and how it is possible for them to do it (Rom. 3 justified by grace through faith, Rom. 5-8 dead to sin, freed from the law and married to Christ.) It is because of God's mercy and by the power of His Spirit that I am able to obey. Romans 7 makes it clear that apart from gospel of Jesus Christ I am sentenced to live in my flesh.

As Christians we are no longer sentenced to follow of list of "have tos" but we are now free by God's grace to pursue a life of "get tos."

As I read Mr. Abanes comments I believer he misunderstands the issue when he insists that it is NOT about salvation. It is about salvation! Before we preach works of any kind to a Christian audience we must first preach the gospel first for the sake of any unbelievers present and secondly to remind the believers present of God's work in making available their forgiveness through Christ.

The gospel is the ground in which our sanctification is rooted. Again in Romans 7 Paul is a justified man but it is clear that he still struggles with doing good things in the flesh. The solution? Who will deliver us from this body of death? Christ Jesus our Lord!

Praise, honor, and glory to His holy name. Amen!

Peace,
Duane

[Douglas]

When God looks at me, he sees Douglas, saved by His amazing grace and mercy alone, with Christ's righteousness imputed to my account. God still sees me and He sees Christ in me. The Lord God almighty has removed my sins as far as the east is to the west and He has cast them into the sea and remembers them no more. BTW, there is no verse in the Bible that says that God casts our sins into "the sea of forgetfulness." Not in those words anyway.

Colossians 1:27to whom God willed to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory. 28We proclaim Him, admonishing every man and teaching every man with all wisdom, so that we may present every man complete in Christ. 29For this purpose also I labor, striving according to His power, which mightily works within me.

I will never join Rick Warren's Purpose Driven Movement, ever.

[Douglas]

Rick Warren in that message is using straight out emotional manipulation. He is one very clever man, too clever for me. I have seen him use emotional manipulation before and he is doing it in that message. He does it on the video he has up at Purpose Driven.com available through here: Critique: The Evangelism Message of Rick Warren. Does Rick Warren proclaim the full-orbed gospel in that video before he gets people to pray that decisonal regeneration prayer? Many professing pastors manipulate people through emotional appeals and so forth. Finney did it, Warren does it, thousands do it today.

[Richard Abanes]

ANITA: Please Mr. Abanes, don't say that NO ONE is hearing weekly teachings on "right living" and not concluding that it is connected to salvation.

RA: Are you telling me what I am hearing? Are you telling me what I am seeing? Are you actually in a position to declare to me what people in my own church -- my own family and friends -- are hearing when they hear Rick speak about various issues regarding lifestyle topics like: serving in ministry, loving others, how to forgive, setting priorities, managing your time for God, recognizing what is most important in life, etc. etc. etc.

I'm telling you what the man is preaching -- salvation comes by grace ALONE through faith ALONE in the shed blood of Jesus Christ on the cross for our sins! Works add NOTHING to our salvation. Works do not EARN salvation. Works do not KEEP salvation. What is so unclear about that?

If YOU declare Warren is actually teaching something else -- produce the statements and teachings. But don't take a few sentences here and there, or some vague concepts you've heard expressed, and EXTRAPOLATE from those things that he is preaching salvation by works.

I can pull hundreds of quotes from Mormonism or JWs that show what it sounds like to really teach salvation by works -- I do not have to extrapolate it from generalized comments or preaching methods. So produce clear statements, or accept what I am saying I believe, what I know Rick believes, and what i know is taught at Saddleback on the issue of salvation -- since I've taught it there in classes.

___________
ANITA: People DO, tragically, conclude that very thing - I know because my husband was one of them. He grew up hearing "helpful" sermons about how to be more loving, humble, responsible and obedient and because he couldn't live up to God's high, holy standard he concluded that he was not truly saved.

RA: Yes, "he concluded." It wasn't something he was taught. Did you he go speak to a pastor about what he "concluded"? Did he ask anyone whether he was right or wrong in what he "concluded"? People "conclude" all kinds of things from Pastors -- it doesn't mean it's the pastors fault.

Oprah publicly said that when she heard her Baptist pastor say God was a jealous God, she "concluded" God was jealous of her!!! Was that conclusion right? No. Did she bother asking for clarification or assistance to see if her conclusion was correct? No. She walked away from Jesus as a result of what she "concluded." Was that the pastor's fault? No. Was that the churches fault? No. Was it true that her pastor was teaching God was jealous of her? No.

I hope this makes sense.

______
ANITA: His exact words to me were: "In my case, I guess salvation didn't stick".

RA: Then, in his case, he should have asked someone about what he concluded. Did he ask the pastor? What did the pastor say? And then, what did your husband do?

_______
ANITA: Please, please do not try to diminish what is a real tragedy: preaching that causes terrified sinners to despair and conclude that salvation is not for them. I'm sorry, but for the life of me I can't understand why you would attempt to defend such a thing.

RA: I'm not defending salvation by works. I'm trying to point out that the preaching about which you speak doesn't logically lead to what happened to your husband. And it certainly doesn't justify saying that such a preacher is actually preaching salvation by works.

And BTW, as for Lutheranism. I've had people tell me they never accepted Jesus after growing up in Lutheranism because they saw nothing but hypocrites in the church who talked about God this and God that on Sunday, then lived like hell during the week getting drunk, being addicted to smoking, sleeping around, swearing like sailors, and be generally like the world in their attitudes and how they treated others -- and all they'd say was, we live by grace there is no law. And their excuse was "hey, no law."

Now what? Am I going to blame some Lutheran pastor, or Lutheranism in general, for preaching about grace to the point that some people in his flock ended up living like hell and turned people off to Jesus? No. Why? Because those people were not taking what the Pastor was teaching properly. They were not listening, but reinterpreting what they were hearing and making bad conclusions about what the pastor was saying.

R. Abanes

PS. I praise God for your husband's salvation

[Douglas]

"This is your idea of Chris's call for gentleness and respect?"

You can talk. Are you trying to lay a guilt trip on me brother?

Gentleness and respect when it comes to confronting false teachings or false teachers who are deceiving millions of people around the globe? It is heartbreaking to see.

"I am not permitted to let my love be so merciful as to tolerate and endure false doctrine. When faith and doctrine are concerned and endangered, neither love nor patience are in order...when these are concerned, neither toleration nor mercy are in order, but only anger, dispute, and destruction - to be sure, only with the Word of God as our weapon." - Martin Luther

The Bible says in Ephesians 4:26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath: 27 Neither give place to the devil. There sure is a time for anger and false teaching makes ME really angry. It is not a sin to be angry regarding false prophets and teachers and their twisting of the Word of God for their own ideas and plans.

[Anita]

Mr. Abanes, I have no idea what you are hearing at your church, but you said NO ONE. You didn't qualify it as "no one at your church". You said NO ONE and I understood it to mean NO ONE. And the reality, whether you care to acknowledge it or not, is that people who hear a steady diet of works sermons DO come to erroneous conclusions about the nature of salvation. How can they make the correct inference when important information is being habitually withheld from them? For you to say that coming to the wrong conclusion was my husband's fault is vicious and despicable. How dare you?

[Rick Frueh]

I was raised in the Lutheran Church, baptized, confirmed, and my mother was the choir director. I was a lost as lost could be, until I heard a Baptist minister preach that Jesus was coming back and then give the gospel. That was 33 years ago and a drug pushing, drunken, immoral, and violent bank robber like me was saved and I've never been the same.

Praise His Wonderful Name!

[Anita]

Forgive me if I was unclear - my husband was saved as a result of HEARING the GOSPEL. I only mentioned that it was in a Lutheran church because that is where the Gospel can be found.

[junosmom]

Just a couple of observations regarding the post and comments

1. Most Christians these days understand the gospel as only what brings us to Christ for salvation; what unbelievers need to hear, believe and respond to. As they understand it, the gospel is for "the seekers" and once believed it has served its purpose. But the gospel is also for our sanctification, therefore our sanctification must be "gospel-driven" (J. Bridges), not necessarily purpose-driven. Thus the call for gospel, Christ-crucified preaching. A proper understanding/preaching of the indicatives vs the imperatives of scripture must be given to believers. This is what Paul does in Romans, Galatians, Ephesians, and elsewhere. He begins his teaching with the indicative - what God has done, who we are, solid doctrine, basically - then he goes on to tell us how, therefore, we are to live, in light of this gospel (the imperative). For the most part, sermons at Saddleback begin with the imperative, hardly touching on any indicative. So, Saddleback members, like Richard A., can contend that Saddleback preaches salvation by grace and not of anything we do, which it does, you will hear that message at Saddleback, however that is where the gospel message ends. The gospel is for believers and believers must hear the fullness of the gospel preached every week. The law is written on our heart, we have it with us everyday, but the gospel is not. We need to hear it again and again to give us life, strength, grace.

2. At Saddleback you will hear that God loves you and forgives you. You hear it all the time. I heard it all the time, but it began to ring hollow for me because I knew hardly anything about God. Who was this God who loved me? What was he like? I heard nothing of his attributes, other than his love. So I was told to love a God I knew nothing about and to love my neighbors out of my own strength, because that is what God requires, that is being obedient.

[Steve Newell]

Many sermons that preached today are not Christ centered messages. Many pastors have replaced the message of the cross with a focus on the Christian life, society or other issues that are not the Gospel. Rev. Todd Wilkins, host of Issues, Etc. radio program has developed a good test to determine if the sermon that the pastor preaches is a Christ centered sermon. Here we are focusing on what the pastor says, not the delivery style or their ability to effectively communicate or entertain an audience, but the content of what is being said. This set of questions is a tool that you can use when listen to a sermon. Content is everything in a sermon!

1. How often is Jesus mention?
2. If Jesus is mentioned, is He the subject of the verbs?
3. What are those verbs?

First, if Jesus is not mentioned, then you know that this is not a Christ centered sermon and not a Christian sermon. Jesus can be mentioned in his various names and titles. Just because Christ is mentioned, doesn’t make the sermon a Christian sermon, especially if the Gospel is not present nor proclaimed.

Second, when Jesus is mentioned, is he the subject of the verbs? In every sentence, there is a subject and a verb. If Jesus isn’t the subject, then who is? If Jesus isn’t the subject of the verbs, then this cannot be a Christ centered sermon. When someone other than Christ is the subject of the sentence, then Christ cannot be the focus of the sermon.

Next, look at the verbs associated with Jesus in the sermon. Are the verbs associated with Jesus passive or active? Is Jesus doing the action or is he being acted upon? If Jesus isn’t the active player in the verbs, then who is? If the pastor is placing the individual as the active player, then this sermon is not a Gospel sermon. For example, “Jesus is waiting for you to give your life to him” places Jesus as the passive player and the individual as the active player. If the pastor says “Jesus has saved you and gives you life” he is placing Jesus as the active player and you as the passive player. This is very important since the Gospel is not about what we do for Christ, but what Christ has already done for us.

At the end of the sermon, ask yourself these to questions: “What is our problem that the pastor has identified in their sermon?” and “What is the solution for our problem?” Is the problem that we are sinful by nature or that we make mistakes? How the pastor defines our problem is critical to how Christ is part of the solution. His definition of the problem also impacts the roll of Christ in the solution. If the problem is anything less than man’s sinful nature and being dead to God, then the problem the pastor defines isn’t the same problem that the bible defines are our problem.

What is the solution that the pastor provides? If the solution is to “Give your heart to Jesus” or “Change your attitude” places the focus on the individual as the source of the solution. This is not a Christ centered sermon but a human centered sermon. The Biblical solution is always what Christ has done for you on the cross.

[Rick Frueh]

I have often wondered how one balances criticizing someone for not being Christ centered, while suggesting that you are Christ centered, and all the while exhibiting and retaining the humility that substantiates such a claim. It often seems like a spiritual paradox, and it is a real practical quandry, wouldn't you say?

[Chris Rosebrough]

Richard,

I want to respectfully take issue with something that you said.

You said, "I think you're interpreting Warren's words through your sensitivity as a Lutheran to anything that even hints of the law."

I will be the first to admit that being a Confessional Lutheran has made me sensitive to the proper distinction of law and gospel but it has not made me overly sensitive to anything that hints of the law. In fact, I emphatically believe that the law MUST be preached and it should not in any way be watered down or softened.

But here is the catch...the scripture is clear that the primary purpose of the law is to show us our sin.

Rom. 3:20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

When a pastor preaches the law it will automatically expose people's sins because that is its purpose and function. (this occurs whether a pastor realizes it or not). Ultimately, the law if preached lawfully it will expose peoples sins and cause them to lose trust in their own self-righteousness, good works, idolatry and false religion. But if it is handled improperly it causes people to trust in their own works and their own righteousness. See the parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector in Luke 18. In that parable the law had done its proper work in the tax collector and he realized his sinful depravity and could only ask for God's forgiveness and mercy. But the Pharisee was deceived and mistakenly believed he was being obedient and thought that God was pleased with his righteousness. The Pharisee didn't understand the law's purpose and therefore wasn't 'justified' while the tax collector was.

So I have absolutely no problem with Rick Warren preaching the law. The problem I have is that in 98% of his sermons he ONLY preaches the law or some form of it. The reason Warren has stated that he does this is because he believes that 'Repentance' is THE central message of the New Testament. And there is where the rub is. As I've already pointed out, Jesus is clear that the Christian message is BOTH repentance AND the forgiveness of sins in Jesus' name.

In other words, no Christian preacher regardless of whether they are Lutheran, Baptist or Presbyterian has the freedom to ONLY preach repentance (law) or ONLY preach the forgiveness of sins (gospel). Instead, the shepherds of God's flock are called to proclaim BOTH law and gospel. The law to kill and the Gospel to comfort.

When the law is preached to the exclusion of the gospel then pietism and pharisaical self-righteousness is the inevitable result.

When the gospel is preached without the law then there is no context for the gospel and the inevitable result is anti-nomianism and people who think that the gospel is a license to sin.

Furthermore, we see clear evidence in scripture for this twin message of repentance and forgiveness of sins.

Mark 1:15 and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”

Acts 2:38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 3:19 Repent therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out,

Acts 8:22 Repent, therefore, of this wickedness of yours, and pray to the Lord that, if possible, the intent of your heart may be forgiven you.

Acts 20:17   Now from Miletus he sent to Ephesus and called the elders of the church to come to him. 18 And when they came to him, he said to them: “You yourselves know how I lived among you the whole time from the first day that I set foot in Asia, 19 serving the Lord with all humility and with tears and with trials that happened to me through the plots of the Jews; 20 how I did not shrink from declaring to you anything that was profitable, and teaching you in public and from house to house, 21 testifying both to Jews and to Greeks of repentance toward God and of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ.

So this is not a Lutheran doctrine that I am defending this is a Christian and Biblical doctrine that I am defending.

[Richard Abanes]

C,

Good response. I have some questions/comments of clarification.

________________
CR: the scripture is clear that the primary purpose of the law is to show us our sin. Rom. 3:20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

RA: Agreed.

_______________
CR: When a pastor preaches the law it will automatically expose people's sins because that is its purpose and function. (this occurs whether a pastor realizes it or not).

RA: Can you tell me, do you consider it "preaching the law" when Warren talks about:

1) managing your time better;
2) setting priorities and being more heavenly minded;
3) accepting the fact that forgiveness is something we must do as Christians;
4) living life as if it were our last day on earth?

....... etc. etc. etc. etc. Are these tihngs what you consider law -- i.e., ANYTHING that has anything to do with practical living?

___________________
CR: So I have absolutely no problem with Rick Warren preaching the law. The problem I have is that in 98% of his sermons he ONLY preaches the law or some form of it.

RA: See above.

___________________
CR: The reason Warren has stated that he does this is because he believes that 'Repentance' is THE central message of the New Testament. And there is where the rub is. As I've already pointed out, Jesus is clear that the Christian message is BOTH repentance AND the forgiveness of sins in Jesus' name.

RA: As previously noted, Warren teaches that repentance is "a change of mind." Don't put more on it than that.

The results that follow repentance, or "changing one's mind," he calls the "fruit of repentance," which is accomplished solely through the power of the Holy Spirit working in the lives of those who have truly yielded to Christ and who are saved.

For the unsaved, true repentance will be manifested as true salvation, which in turn will be witnessed/recognized by men through our works (see James).

_____________________
CR: In other words, no Christian preacher regardless of whether they are Lutheran, Baptist or Presbyterian has the freedom to ONLY preach repentance (law) or ONLY preach the forgiveness of sins (gospel).

RA: Here's the rub -- Warren DOESN'T only preach the law. He DOES preach both the law and the Gospel. Again, as I have said, as a member of Saddleback and someone who has been a Christian for nearly 30 years and an apologist for nearly 15 years, if I had to point to a problem at Saddleback it would be an over-emphasis on God's love/grace! Interesting, huh? Something is getting mixed up somewhere. Consequently, I would actually tend to be more accepting of those who criticize Warren for being to easy on people, and those who worry about the possibility of easy-believ-ism creeping into the message. But an over-emphasis on LAW over Gospel of grace -- hardly.

If you were talking about Raul Ries and several other Calvary Chapel pastors, I would give you a hearty AMEN! and together we could fight the good fight against legalism, an over-emphasis on law, and lift up the banner of GRACE! But I can't agree with you on your analysis of Warren on this point.

_______________________
CR: When the law is preached to the exclusion of the gospel then pietism and pharisaical self-righteousness is the inevitable result. When the gospel is preached without the law then there is no context for the gospel and the inevitable result is anti-nomianism and people who think that the gospel is a license to sin.

RA: I agree. I agree. I agree. I agree. I agree. I agree. I agree. I agree. I agree.

I have to smile a bit here, because I agree with you SO STRONGLY on this point about law. It drove me CRAZY when attended Calvary Chapel, which is one reason why I left the Calvary system for Saddleback -- because it was so refreshing to hear someone FINALLY preach grace & love!!!! ROFL. If we can remain lighthearted about this -- it's kind of amusing.

RABANES

[Zek]

RA: You never answered this one?

I didn’t have to look far to find sound bites of RW salvation by works, found on this site. How do you guys make the http links so they don’t need to be copied & pasted. You web guys are smart:

http://podcast.extremetheology.com/extreme/warren/TakesMoreFaith.wav

Above sound bite- RW “It takes more than belief, it takes more than faith to really please God” I guess that means it takes “works” or a “10 steps method”??

http://podcast.extremetheology.com/extreme/warren/OnlyThing.wav

Above sound bite- RW “All that matters is do I love God and know how to love other people…” I guess it’s back to “me” having to do something again? But what if I am not good enough and don’t love people enough, see the “works”?

http://podcast.extremetheology.com/extreme/warren/NothingIBelieve.wav

Above sound bite- RW “If I don’t live a life of love nothing else matters… What matters is how I love God and people, it’s not enough to believe…”?? Guess it’s back on me again!

RW- “Being a Christian is living a life of love in community…?”, huh??? You sure, I thought being a Christian, is God giving me the faith to repent & believe & trust in Christ, and His finished work on the Cross, and has absolutely nothing to do with the creature? I was dead in sin remember, I couldn’t have lived a life of love towards God if I wanted to, if God showed up I would of run the other way as fast as I could!!! I am only saved because of Christ & His work ALONE!!!, He took out my heart of stone and replaced it with a heart that responds to Christ, He did that, not me deciding to “live a life of love, in community”

I lived for 15 years on that treadmill, all it did is make me want to give up being a Christian, because I was always failing, trying to make Christ think I was special by doing 10 steps, never realizing that it was HIS finished work that mattered not my performance, hence my earlier post from yesterday:
“But the differences between these two ‘liquids’”
Yeah, one puts you under the law, back on the “treadmill” working yourself to DEATH trying to earn things, only to feel like you failed every single day! While the other, Christ finish work alone on the cross, will give you life, Christian joy and peace like a river that never ends,
“… I want you to draw your joy & peace from Christ’s finished work on the cross not your performance, or what you can do for Christ” – Paul Washer-

I believe that RW does NOT understand the doctrine of regeneration. When God changes the heart, CREATES the NEW CREATURE, that creature does LOVE, the new creature has the saving FAITH, and is GAURANTEED to be brought to GLORY, period!

Romans 8:30 Whom He predestined, these He also CALLED; whom He CALLED, these He JUSTIFIED , and whom He JUSTIFIED, these He also GLORIFIED

Notice its all in the past tense, its as good as done for the believer who has faith in Christ, it’s a promise that is based on God and He never changes and never breaks a promise. God already did the work to keep us, there NO work we need to do!

Remember Salvation is a GIFT of His grace

RW is not teaching this, he is keeping all his members running on their treadmills, sad!

[Richard Abanes]

Z,

Answered under thread, "WHAT IS THE PURPOSE DRIVEN CHURCH PARADIGM"

See -- Posted by: Richard Abanes | June 04, 2008 at 06:36 PM

RA

[Zek]

Oops okay

http://podcast.extremetheology.com/extreme/warren/NothingIBelieve.wav

Above sound bite- RW “If I don’t live a life of love nothing else matters… What matters is how I love God and people, it’s not enough to believe…”?? Guess it’s back on me again!

RA: So why does RW have to labor so hard about needing to tell his people that they need to love people & God, that's it not enough to believe?

If RW believes the doctrine of regeneration, then he would know that when God changes the heart & creates a “new creature” that creature has the saving faith & LOVE, and is guaranteed to be brought to Glory?

In other words, “Rick” tell me how I get saved (repent & believe on Christ) so that I have the “LOVE” rather than, I need love & need to love people…

If you don’t believe that sounds like “works” then it wasted time because the “new creature” has the LOVE they need, it’s given to supernaturally by God?

[Porpoise Driven]

ok who is the "watchman" that put this together?:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9GgWHaBS-2k

[Bill]

Chris,

I disagree 100% with your analysis. Rick Warren does not preach biblical repentance. Let us not confuse new-age self improvement tips (with misquoted scripture quotations to support them) with preaching biblical repentance.

Biblical repentance is Romans 7, where the sinner is crushed by the Law of God. Like you point out Chris, Rick Warren hardly ever mentions sin (or the total depravity of man). Rick Warren never mentions forgiveness, because he never preaches repentance, and without repentance there is no need for forgivenes or a Saviour. Repentance is first and foremost admitting our own failure in our battle against sin, repentance starts by acknowledging we fall short because we are dead in Adam, biblical repentance means acknowledging our own wretchedness, acknowledging the deeds of man are evil. Repentance and forgiveness of sins go hand in hand, Warren does not preach repentance and as a result he can't preach forgiveness of sin.

You can't compare a godly man like John Wesley with an apostate like Rick Warren. John Wesley preached about sin, total depravity, and man's need for repentance every bit as much as Luther and Calvin, Rick Warren does not. You can't compare Rick Warren's seeker sensitive message about sin (mention it as little as possible or better don't call it sin and call it imperfections so that nobody is offended) with John Wesley's preaching of sin and the wages of sin (death) as the bible commands it.

Chris, I recommend you check the Way of the Master website (www.wayofthemaster.com) where it is explained how men like Wesley, Whitefield, Luther, Calvin they all preached the law calling sinners to repentance, while the modern evangelical seeker sensitive message doesn't preach the biblical law that makes the sinner aware of the reality of eternal death for breaking God's Law. As a result the "seekers" never sees a need for salvation, although they have needs for self improvement. Jonnathan Edwards wrote a whole book about people that want to get rid of sins that make their life miserable (Warren calls those sins hang-ups, addictions), and he said it clearly that is not repentance, that is a selfish need for self improvement. A guy may want to quit smoking, and Rick Warren may want to help him, but this man may not acknowledge that he is a sinner on his way to hell, so this is not biblical repentance, not even close.

All Rick Warren does is provide self improvement coaching to keep "seekers" coming back, this is not preaching the law. When the law is preached people feel dead in their sin, just like Augustine wrote in his confessions, just like Luther felt before his conversion, just like Wesley felt that he couldn't please God before his conversion. These men struggled and gave testimony of it, the folks that attend the seeker sensitive churches are there to indulge in the flesh and get self improvement tips for their lives, they have very little idea what repentance and the need for salvation means.

[Bill]

Just to add to what I just posted. Rick Warren preaches works, but not repentance as I explained at length. Rick Warren wants people to work for his churhc, in his PEACE plan, he puts demands on people but he does not preach repentance as I explained at length a few minutes ago. The pharisees preached works but did not preach repentance, there's a difference between preaching good works like Warren does and the pharisees did and preaching biblical repentance (which humbles man and prepares the heart for the forgiveness of sins).

[Bill]

OK, my third post in a row. Good things keep coming to my mind after I post.

"God, have mercy on me a sinner" like the tax collector said that is repentance in my opinion. A man humbling himself, when you repent you need a humble attitude. Repentance is not related to good works.

"God, I thank you that I'm not like this man, I tithe, I obey your commandments, etc." like the pharisee said is not a repentant heart but a self righteous heart. The good works of man are usually associated with boasting and lack of humility, not with christian repentance. Warren preaches good works just like the pharisee, he does not preach repentance.

[Bill]

OK, and last one (fourth post in a row) I promise.

Budhists, hindus, unbelivers (charities, governments) they all preach good works but they do not preach repentance.

Warren preaches a religion of works and that's for sure, but he does not preach repentance as I explained at length in my first post.

[Richard Abanes]

Chris,

Bill stated: "Rick Warren does not preach biblical repentance."

I can take you to 20 websites that agree with Bill, and say the very opposite of your analysis -- i.e., that Warren does NOT preach repentance (or the Law) at all, and that he only preaches feel good-ism, pop-psychology, easy-believe-ism, and only God's love.

My take? Certain people are already deciding that Warren has gotto be wrong ..... er, uhm..... SOMEHOW. And they judge/measure where he's wrong, not necessarily by what he teaches, but by their own theological framework and doctrinal presuppositions. And this is why you have him being criticized oftentimes for completely OPPOSITE things -- which is impossible as you know.

Here we have a perfect examples already appearing. Your view that he teaches repentance too much vs. Bill's assertion that he doesn't teach repentance at all. Your view that he only gives the law vs. Bill's perspective that doesn't give enough of the law.

I've seen this again and again. Sigh....what a mess.

RAbanes

[Chris Rosebrough]

Richard,

You asked: "Can you tell me, do you consider it "preaching the law" when Warren talks about:

1) managing your time better;
2) setting priorities and being more heavenly minded;
3) accepting the fact that forgiveness is something we must do as Christians;
4) living life as if it were our last day on earth?

The answer to all four is YES.

Any time someone makes the case that I OUGHT to do something or not do something based upon God's expectations or rules then they are preaching the law in some form or another.

The tacit implication in all four of the items you listed is that if I am NOT living up to the standard presented then I have sinned and fallen short and God is not pleased with my sin and therefore is not pleased with me.

The problem with preaching for obedience is that God's standard for obedience is not 1/4 obedience or 1/2 Obedience. The Biblical standard is Perfect Obedience. So every single time I fall short of Perfect Obedience the law nails me. Even worse, Perfect Obedience is not only expected in my actions but also in my motives and heart.

So here again my problem with Warren's approach is highlighted. He preaches the law because he's preaching for 'repentance' and 'obedience'. But even if I apply the principles he's laid out and my life 'improves' I am STILL disobedient because the Biblical Standard is PERFECTION. And as Bill, rightly pointed out, Warren does not preach the law in a way that brings a person to the point of sorrow and contrition for their sins. They are not brought to that point where, like the tax collector in Luke 18, they have lost all trust in their own righteousness and good works and can only ask God for his mercy. The way Warren preaches the law, its as if all a person has to do is apply the 'how to' steps that he lays out and presto they are obeying God and God is happy and smiling at them.

Keep in my Richard that the Saddleback services are 'Seeker-Friendly' and that Saddleback spends a ton of money advertising to the "un churched". That means you are getting a healthy amount of unbelievers attending every Sunday. That means that even if they apply that 'how to' information that God is NOT at all pleased with them because they do not have faith.

So again the problem is that Warren is preaching some form of the law Sunday after Sunday but tacitly he is condemning everyone who listens to his sermons because they are not perfectly doing the things he is saying God wants them to do. But, the solution that he is offering is not the Forgiveness of Sins but instead his solutions are 'how to' applications that really do not help at all because the only obedience God accepts is Perfect Obedience.

The gospel message of the forgiveness of sins is NOT only for unbelievers. We Christians need it every Sunday too. In fact, it is the preaching of both Law and Gospel that God uses to create true sorrow and contrition for sins and true repentance and true fear love and trust in Christ.

Warren treats the Gospel like a booster rocket that is jettisoned once someone comes to faith in Christ. But that is not what the New Testament teaches and shows us. The life of a Christian is lived directly under the shadow of the cross. Since Christ (not me) has called his church to proclaim repentance AND AND AND the forgiveness of sins in Jesus' name then the Biblical purpose of preaching is twofold. The Biblical purposes for preaching are to expose and condemn sins which leads to repentance and to proclaim the forgiveness of sins through faith in Jesus Christ.

The solution offered in the scriptures for our sin problem is not 'how to' applications so that we can 'do better'. The solution offered in the scriptures for our sin problem is the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. But that is precisely the solution that is tragically missing from the vast majority of Warren's sermons.

This is why many, including myself, describe Purpose-Driven Preaching as Christless Christianity.

[steve martin]

"So as I told Warren to his face, I will now say again. Pastor Warren you are wrong about repentance being the central message of the New Testament because you are only half right. Repent and preach BOTH repentance and the forgiveness of sins in Jesus name as our Lord has instructed."

Nice job Chris.

I don't know you could've said that would have been better.

- Steve Martin

[Zek]

I think RW may confuse “fruit” & “works”. What I mean by that is maybe RW sees these two as the same? IE In James it says, "You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith only," (James 2:24)

Then proceeds to put people back under the law by not preaching repentance & Christ’s finished works alone!

Fruit= the necessary evidence of the “new creature” after being born again. In other words, it’s impossible for a converted Christian to NOT have fruit.

Does a fruit tree have to try and bear fruit, or does it just produce fruit as it grows, by no extra work on the part of the tree? No, it happens because it’s a fruit tree.

Do I have to “work” extra hard while I sleep at night to grow my beard that I have to shave off the next morning before I go to work? No, it happens because I am a man.

Does the Christian have to “work” to produce their fruit? No, it happens because they are a new creature in Christ. Therefore, “if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; old things have passed away; all things have become new” 2 Cor 5:17

When a Christian has the saving faith, they produce the fruit without “working or activity”. Good woks happen in a Christian life because we have great gratitude for what God has done for us in Christ! Example, in the Great Commission, we work because it’s a privilege to be a part of the work, it’s biblical, but more so, it comes from a great gratitude, privilege & a changed heart for Christ, and nothing else! And certainly not a “10 steps” psycho method

[Zek]

Remember, God is not served by human hands as if He needed anything for us!

[Zek]

correction:

Remember, God is not served by human hands as if He needed anything FROM us!

[Rick Frueh]

"This is why many, including myself, describe Purpose-Driven Preaching as Christless Christianity."

Chris, a question. Can a person be saved through the Purpose-Driven presentation of the gospel since you say it is "Christless Christianity". And can a person who preaches a "Christless Christianity" be saved?

[Plankman]

Chris R. said: "Any time someone makes the case that I OUGHT to do something or not do something based upon God's expectations or rules then they are preaching the law in some form or another.

The tacit implication in all four of the items you listed is that if I am NOT living up to the standard presented then I have sinned and fallen short and God is not pleased with my sin and therefore is not pleased with me."

Can you explain the difference, then, when a site like A Little Leaven is critical of a "Gay & Christian" shirt and the commenters begin throwing out law, law, law for why homosexuality is wrong? That's not the only example, just the first one that came to my mind.

I guess my question to you, Chris, is when is it okay to talk about how we ought to live? If that's always too much OUGHT-ness for you, then why do Christians spend any time talking about individual pet-sins like homosexuality or divorce or gossip?

I'm not trying to be difficult...this is a sincere question.

[Rick Frueh]

"I guess my question to you, Chris, is when is it okay to talk about how we ought to live?"

As much as does the New Testament which is substantial.

[Richard Abanes]

CR: The answer to all four is YES.

RA: Really? Ok, well, hmm, we seriously differ here. I love you, bro. I really do. But you consider it preaching the law to give godly pointers to people about how they can better forgive those who have hurt them, and how they can better manage their time/resources using biblical principles? I don't see any of these things mentioned directly or even implied in scripture when it comes to references to God's law

__________
CR: Any time someone makes the case that I OUGHT to do something or not do something based upon God's expectations or rules then they are preaching the law in some form or another.

RA: Hmm, I thought it was simply preaching from God's Word on a topic and the guidance and direction God has lovingly given us so we can live more Christ-like, biblical, fulfilling, righteous, and loving lives as servants of the Master and examples to the world. Hmmm. Interesting.

__________
CA: The tacit implication in all four of the items you listed is that if I am NOT living up to the standard presented then I have sinned and fallen short and God is not pleased with my sin and therefore is not pleased with me.

RA: Woah Woah Woah Woah!!!!!! That's like me saying that when I hear a Lutheran message on total love/grace that the pastor is actually offering a "tacit implication" that you can go out ans sin all you want because God's grace will cover everything so don't even worry about it!!

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CR: The Biblical standard is Perfect Obedience. So every single time I fall short of Perfect Obedience the law nails me. Even worse, Perfect Obedience is not only expected in my actions but also in my motives and heart.

RA: No kidding. That's why Jesus lived the perfect life for us, so that when we fall short, it doesn't matter in any salvific way. And as for sanctification, we have 1 John 1:9. We have no argument.

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CR: And as Bill, rightly pointed out, Warren does not preach the law in a way that brings a person to the point of sorrow and contrition for their sins. They are not brought to that point where, like the tax collector in Luke 18, they have lost all trust in their own righteousness and good works and can only ask God for his mercy. The way Warren preaches the law, its as if all a person has to do is apply the 'how to' steps that he lays out and presto they are obeying God and God is happy and smiling at them.

RA: Chris, incorrect. People ARE sorry for the things they've done. They DO go to God for forgiveness. Never has Warren said that ""all a person has to do is apply the 'how to' steps that he lays out"and all is well.

There is ALWAYS, I believe, a clear proviso/qualification given at the end of messages wherein Warren, or whoever is preaching, says that living according to Biblical standards CANNOT be done on one's own power/self/strength. Only by living in a relationship to God is living righteously even possible. It is God who works in us to live Christlike, and to have the mind that was in Christ Jesus. I think you are extrapolating from Warren's words based on your sensitivity to someone laying the law down on your head.

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CR: That means that even if they apply that 'how to' information that God is NOT at all pleased with them because they do not have faith.

RA: Dude!!! I agree!!!! That's why at the end of messages Warren (or whoever) normally tells people it's only through Christ and/or God that such changes can take place in one's life.

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CR: So again the problem is that Warren is preaching some form of the law Sunday after Sunday but tacitly he is condemning everyone who listens to his sermons because they are not perfectly doing the things he is saying God wants them to do.

RA: It'd be interesting to hear if the people he is actually speaking to feel at all condemned. I certainly don't. My wife doesn't. And, TBH, I don't know anyone at Saddleback who does. In fact, in all my years at Saddleback, both on and off staff, working in multiple ministries -- not ONCE have I heard anyone come to me and say that something they heard made them feel condemned. I am trying to tell you that if anything, the very opposite is the problem. Now, where do we go with this situation: i.e., you telling me what Warren is preaching and theorizing about how it's affecting people vs. me telling you what my pastor is preaching and from first-hand experience telling you how it's affecting people?

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CR: We Christians need it every Sunday too. In fact, it is the preaching of both Law and Gospel that God uses to create true sorrow and contrition for sins and true repentance and true fear love and trust in Christ.

RA: And now you are speaking for all Christians, and telling all Christians what they do and do not need? You are also saying what God does and does not need to have every Sunday so that in the people at any given church he can "create true sorrow and contrition for sins and true repentance and true fear love and trust in Christ." Chris, bro, you're trying to turn Warren into a Lutheran and trying to make everyone who goes to Saddleback think/feel like a Lutheran.

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CR: The life of a Christian is lived directly under the shadow of the cross. Since Christ (not me) has called his church to proclaim repentance AND AND AND the forgiveness of sins in Jesus' name then the Biblical purpose of preaching is twofold. The Biblical purposes for preaching are to expose and condemn sins which leads to repentance and to proclaim the forgiveness of sins through faith in Jesus Christ.

RA: Chris, reading between the lines, you are going beyond what you are saying on the surface here. What are actually asking for all of this to take place to the measure YOU think is appropriate -- e.g. a measure equal to how it takes place in Lutheranism. But how much of all of this has to be done to satisfy you (and what you feel is biblical).

For Warren, me, the pastors, and Saddleback attenders life IS lived constantly under the shadow of the cross. Forgiveness IS preached. But you are saying no -- not enough. That's like you telling someone you need to eat more, drink, more, bath more, sleep more while they keep trying to tell you: "I'm not hungry, I'm not thirst, I'm not dirty, I'm not sleepy. I've been eating, drinking, bathing, and sleeping plenty."

I see no biblical verses that you could possibly use to justify making a measurement of how much is enough of the various things you listed. Where is the line drawn to meet YOUR standards for living constantly in the shadow of the cross? How many times does someone have to be told God forgives them to satisfy YOUR measurement of enough? Your criteria is not biblical, imho, it is totally subjective.

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CR: This is why many, including myself, describe Purpose-Driven Preaching as Christless Christianity.

RA: Hmm, yeah, well, with that one, I think our conversation has just dead-ended -- much to my sadness and disappointment. I shall leave you to pursue my Christless Christianity, at a Christless church, under a pastor who preaches a Christless message, to people who live Christless lives. Feel free, even after we met and had a great time of fellowship, to relegate me to the Christless heap of the unsaved -- you wouldn't be the first.

RAbanes

[John Ventry]

Very good post. This is a trend that is occurring more and more today. The church is saying come and let me give you life advice to help you improve your life or how to be blessed. I see this as dangerous because what happens when people continue to follow these steps and it doesn't lead to the life they hoped. They will leave the church and God at the same time.