They say a picture is worth a thousand words. But, what if you could take a thousand words and turn them into a picture? What would that picture teach us? Well, when it comes to comparing the content, center and subject of "Purpose-Driven" preaching versus Christ-Centered preaching these 'word pictures' tell us a lot.
Below, I've taken some of Rick Warren's sermons and created 'word clouds' of them. Word clouds display the most used words in the largest font size while the least used are in the smallest font size. Word Clouds provide us with a visual means of determining what something is really about by isolating words and themes and prioritizing them.
For the sake of comparison, I have also taken a couple of sermons from the Rev. William Cwirla, pastor of Holy Trinity Lutheran Church in Hacienda Heights, CA.
The differences between the two sets of sermons are startling! One set of sermons is focused on Jesus Christ and in the other set Jesus is practically missing (even though one of the sermons is an EASTER SERMON!).
If you want to get the FULL IMPACT of the differences between the two sets of sermons then take the time to read the full texts of all four. I've provided links to each sermon for that purpose.
Rick Warren's Sermon Word Clouds
Sermon 1 - Embracing the Vision: God's Vision for the Rest of Your Life preached on Easter Sunday 2005.
Sermon 2 - Conquering Complaining: How to Enjoy the Rest of Your Life
Bill Cwirla's Sermon Clouds
Sermon 1 - On the Road to Emmaus
Sermon 2 - Rejection, Denial, Despair
What do you think of the differences between these sermons? Does it even matter?
HT: Paul McCain
How do you make these word clouds?
Thanks for your new show and your support of Todd W.
Posted by: Rev. Paul J Cain | July 17, 2008 at 04:33 PM
Pastor Cain,
I used the word cloud generator at http://wordle.net/
Posted by: Chris Rosebrough | July 17, 2008 at 05:13 PM
Chris, that is a great site. I went to that website and created my own wordcloud. I couldn't find a good preacher (like the one you used) so I just used Jesus. I put in the entire chapter 5 of Matthew (sermon on the mount)using the ESV and you would not believe the picture I got back. I was so disappointed in Jesus. The picture clearly reveals he spent an ungodly amount of sermon time talking about Heaven and being blessed.
You can see it at:
http://wordle.net/gallery/wrdl/73861/Sermon_on_the_mount
Posted by: Paul | July 17, 2008 at 05:35 PM
Step away from Rick Warren for a moment. I'd like to see some of the word clouds that would be generated if some of the comments on other postings on this site were put under the same microscope.
Posted by: catransplant48 | July 17, 2008 at 06:45 PM
Paul,
You seem to have forgotten something about the Sermon on the Mount. Jesus was the one who preached it. All four Gospels in their entirety are about Jesus, what He did and what He taught.
Christian Pastors are called to preach Christ not themselves. So your attempt at a 'gotcha' is pretty lame.
Posted by: Kairos | July 17, 2008 at 07:20 PM
i followed the link to warren's easter sermon. it was awful! the word cloud shows that warren preached more about purpose on easter than he did about jesus!! wake up people that is not christian preaching!
Posted by: Selma | July 17, 2008 at 07:33 PM
Actually Kairos, I think Paul has hit the nail on the head, and answered the question Chris posted at the end of his blog "What do you think of the differences between these sermons? Does it even matter?"
The answer seems to be that word clouds are pretty cool and fun, but as far as analyzing sermons, they may leave something to be desired. Individual words do not tell us the meaning of the sermon or even the meaning of one sentence in the sermon. Context is key.
Still, they are pretty neat and I think I will have to make a few myself, heh
Blessing,
Posted by: Mike | July 17, 2008 at 07:40 PM
Mike,
I would be the first to admit that word clouds are not a perfect scientific tool for analyzing sermons. However, they do provide a form of analysis that does give some useful information. In a similar way, none of the gauges on the dashboard of my car provides a complete picture of all of the information that I need to safely operate my vehicle. But each gauge serves a useful purpose.
I think the same can be said of these word clouds. They don't give us a complete picture of a sermon which is why I also provided links to each of the sermons so that people can further analyze the data.
IMHO, the word clouds identify a fundamental and important difference in the preaching philosophies of Rick Warren and Bill Cwirla. Warren believes in preaching for 'obedience' and Cwirla believes in preaching Christ and him crucified. That is a profound difference and one that should not be ignored. The word clouds alert us to the fact that there is a difference. Reading the sermons confirm that the differences are real. I think one approach is right and the other is wrong (dead wrong).
1Cor. 1:20 Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. 22 For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
1 Cor. 2:1 And I, when I came to you, brothers,did not come proclaiming to you the testimony of God with lofty speech or wisdom. 2 For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified.
Posted by: Chris Rosebrough | July 17, 2008 at 08:28 PM
Paul - bravo. I was thinking the same thing myself.
I wonder if you did this same thing with all 4 gospels how large and noticeable words like CRITIC and SUSPECT and WITCH HUNT and FEAR and FIGHT and DEFEND would show up in contrast to words like LOVE and GRACE and FORGIVE and PEACE and HARMONY and UNITY.
Chris, to your question, does any of this matter? Only if you are looking for the devil behind every rock more than pointing to the grace of God found in Jesus Christ.
Christian Pastors are called to preach Christ not themselves. So your attempt at a 'gotcha' is pretty lame.
Actually we are called to preach the gospel which is what even Christ came to proclaim. But in any event, no one, not even Warren, advocates preaching "themselves." Even Chris should acknowledge that.
Posted by: Chad | July 17, 2008 at 10:06 PM
Interesting - I never really thought about using wordle to get a feel for what pastors talk about most in sermons. So, I googled: luther sermon - and found a site with links to some of his sermons. I picked the first Easter Sunday one I saw and made a wordle out of it:
http://wordle.net/gallery/wrdl/74288/Luther_Sermon_for_Easter_Sunday
Posted by: Chris Whisonant | July 17, 2008 at 10:11 PM
Chad,
Did you see the names of the sermons on the page that Chris linked to? Here are just some of the names of Rick Warren's sermons.
God's Part/My Part In Changing Me
How To Reduce Conflict With Others
How To Be Joyful No Matter What
How To Enjoy The People In Your Life
Finding Your Missing Peace
Happy From The Inside Out
The Secret Of Satisfaction
Controlling My Reactions
How To Heal A Broken Heart
The First Step To Happiness
Learning To Be Content
Prospering With Integrity
Affair-Proofing Your Marriage
The Foundation For A Strong Family
How To Develop Patience
How To Be Wise With Your Wealth
How To Face Your Future
How To Avoid Arguments
How To Relate Wisely To Others
How To Manage Your Mouth
How To Treat People Right
How To Make Up Your Mind
How To Profit From Your Problems
The Marks Of A Mature Person
Finding the Strength to Go On
Rebuilding Your Life When You’ve Lost Everything
These aren't sermons about Christ nor the gospel. These may as well be past episodes of Oprah.
Posted by: Kairos | July 18, 2008 at 12:03 AM
Kairos,
You are wrong about those messages. For reasons only you can answer, you chose to only list select titles. Why didn't you include the following (to name a few):
Amazing Grace
Growing In Grace
Restoring Grace
Offering Grace
Liberating Grace
Healing Grace
Sustaining Grace
Guilt And Grace
Saving Grace
Receiving Guidance From God
How To Recognize God's Voice
How God Talks To You
How To Hear God Speak
God's Antidote To Fearing The Future
God's Antidote To Your Hurt
God's Antidote To Dark Valleys
God's Antidote To Indecision
God's Antidote To Damaged Emotions
God's Antidote To Busyness
God's Antidote To Worry
I can only conclude from your post that you did not actually take the time to read any of the message outlines. For example, How to Manage Your Mouth is a message about the power of the tongue as referenced in the Book of James. Tell me, if you possibly can, what is so theologically "empty" or "Oprah-esque" about that?
And Mike, you wrote: "Individual words do not tell us the meaning of the sermon or even the meaning of one sentence in the sermon."
Very true, and I'm glad you said that. What people will see on this link to RW's sermons are messages which are laid out in outline form. So those who read them and conclude "Well, he doesn't preach Christ crucified or the true gospel" would be incorrect, having not actually heard RW preach the message in person. He follows the outline but says much more than what is writen down.
Kairos, I invite you to open those messages up and show me one that does not contain Scripture. You would do well to gather facts and dig a little deeper for facts before casting aspersions.
Posted by: catransplant48 | July 18, 2008 at 03:59 AM
On Easter Sunday, the ONLY thing that a Christian pastor should preach is Christ's victory over death for us! If a pastor is unwilling to preach the Resurrection on Easter, then they have nothing important to say.
Posted by: Steve Newell | July 18, 2008 at 07:39 AM
Well said, Catrasplant.
Kairos, God is concerned about how we live today. Those sermon titles do not bother me. I am grateful that there are some Christian pastors out there who teach the Bible and the abundant life we can have in Jesus Christ.
This excercise is ridiculous and does nothing to show the meat of what is being preached on any given Sunday. It is just one more childish way for Chris to defame another Christian. How very sad.
Posted by: Chad | July 18, 2008 at 07:44 AM
Chad and catransplant,
All of the sermons I listed are 'how to' type sermons. Sorry, but the Bible is not a how to fix it manual. Sure, Warren quotes some Bible verses in all of his sermons but I went through many of these and found they were ripped out of context, quoted from bizarre paraphrases and were only cited as a means of supporting his points. This isn't Christian preaching at all.
Here are my questions for you.
How patient are you?
How strong is your family?
Are you joyful no matter what?
Do you display all the marks of a mature person?
Is your marriage affair proofed?
Do you manage your mouth?
Do you treat people right?
Are you content with what you have?
Are you happy from the inside?
Do you apply all the secrets of satisfaction?
How good are you at controlling your reactions?
How good are you at relating wisely to others?
Are you in debt?
Do you manage your finances wisely?
You both seem so enamored with this type of preaching so I want to know how effective it is? BTW, the Biblical standard for obedience is 'perfect obedience'. So in which of these areas are you perfectly obedient?
Posted by: Kairos | July 18, 2008 at 02:35 PM
Kairos,
First of all, I am not "enamored" by his or any preaching. I do not listen to Warren's sermons but have read his books (years ago) and admire the work he is doing in Africa and elsewhere (I am the father of two adopted Ethiopian children).
Secondly, your questions, regardless of the answers, serve to prove nothing at all. What you I notice you did NOT ask is the main question: Are you pefectly loving God and your neighbor as yourself? The answer to both of those is NO. And I dare say neither are you. However, that does not excuse me as a pastor to not continue preaching and teaching that we are to love God and neighbor and to "be perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect." Do you think Jesus was wrong in preaching what he preached even though we cannot "perfectly" achieve this this side of heaven?
Do you think God cares nothing whatsoever about how well we live life in the present? Do you think God wants us to be depressed? Anxious? Fearful? Do you believe God's Word has something to say to these issue that is more robust and life giving than what secular media would shell out? Yes or no?
peace,
Chad
Posted by: Chad | July 18, 2008 at 02:53 PM
Chad,
The issue here is the fact that the scriptures teach an obedience that is through faith. PD sermons teach a naked obedience through human efforts and that is not what the scriptures teach.
God has a lot to say about how I live my life. My problem is that I don't obey what God says and neither do you. Beating people over the head with God's law and giving them 'steps' for keeping God's law is a load of rubbish. That is what the Phasisees did.
The primary purpose of God's law is to nail us to the wall and show us that we don't keep it. When the law does its work we are stripped of all our silly self-righteous notions and false belief that God is somehow delighted by what we call 'good works'.
When Jesus preached the law it convicted people of their sin. Jesus' message to the masses wasn't 'try harder' or 'apply these three easy applications'. Jesus' solution was his perfect righteousness given to us as a gift, all of our sins wiped clean through his death on the cross. We do good works as a fruit of our faith in Christ, through the power of the Holy Spirit, out of love for our neighbor not because we are trying to earn brownie points with God.
Warren's 'how to' sermons are the same type of spiritual poison that the pharisees were teaching.
Posted by: Kairos | July 18, 2008 at 03:27 PM
I think there is this common misconception that just because someone defends Warren they must also resemble him. That is not always the case. On my blog can be found several of my most recent sermons, including Easter, and I think anyone will find that my style and content differ greatly from Warrens.
However, I value Warren's ministry and recognize that not all pastors are alike and not all are called to the same type of ministry. We are all gifted by the Spirit as God sees fit and Warren, I believe, is excercising those gifts to the glory of God. The church should not be a bunch of clones. We are all one body but comprised of many parts. Some, like Chris and Ken Silva and others like them, I am sure believe that what they are doing is a "ministry" and is needed for the church today. Their ministry, however, does little if nothing to build the body of Christ. It serves only to belittle and divide it. They feel that they are needed to "defend" God's truth as if God is not capable of this Himself. What ever did God do before sites like these came about?
The fact is that not everyone proclaims the Gospel like Chris or his buddies do (his buddy in this OP is one example). I think God will have some pretty heavy things to say to those who would place themselves in the seat of judgment and chose to divide the church rather than pray for her and join in the work of bringing healing to the world. That is a greater tragedy than any sermon, hot or cold, anyone of us could preach. This OP, with it's pointless and useless wordplay is just one more example of how hateful Christians can be to other Christians while the world watches on and continues to die.
God help us.
Posted by: Chad | July 18, 2008 at 03:33 PM
Warren's 'how to' sermons are the same type of spiritual poison that the pharisees were teaching.
Kairos, this is just not true. The Pharisees taught obedience to the Law as a way to be close to God and be deemed a true Jew. It was how they separated themselves from the Roman culture.
Warren does not teach "how to" sermons as a means to get closer to God or to earn salvation. I would challenge you to find where Warren teaches one must get better to get Christ. You won't find it. Your linking Warren to the Pharisees is nothing but a straw man.
I do not preach "come to Jesus" sermons every Sunday. Most people in my church are already professing Christians. Most of them need to know how to LIVE in a world that teaches how to have an abundant life its way while Jesus and scripture teaches another way. Most Christians(and non Christians) are totally ignorant to the fact that God actually has something to say about money or about anxiety or worry or fear. They have no idea that God is really relevant to a life on MOnday morning. That is something Warren is countering and doing a good job at it. You don't like it? Fine. You are free to join another church where you can be fed. But don't cast judgment on a man who professes Jesus Christ as Lord and as the way to salvation and whose ministry has done far more for the Kingdom of God than you or I will probably ever do - certainly far more than internet sites like these.
peace,
Chad
Posted by: Chad | July 18, 2008 at 03:40 PM
Chad,
The scriptures call us to test what is being preached and taught in the church and compare it to the clear words of scripture. We are called to divide from those who teach error and false doctrine. Chris has provided quite a bit of evidence that suggests that Warren teaches a form of works-righteousness and that his preaching is contrary to the clear instructions given in scripture to pastors to preach the word, preach the gospel and preach Christ crucified for sinners. His 'how to' sermons are do not stand up against Biblical scrutiny.
Your little diatribe against Chris was nothing more than an ad hominem attack and that says to me that you are in the wrong.
Posted by: Kairos | July 18, 2008 at 03:43 PM
Your little diatribe against Chris was nothing more than an ad hominem attack and that says to me that you are in the wrong.
lol. Yet Chris, or anyone who agrees with your view, is in the right, right? Of course.
I notice how you haven't addressed any of my questions. This is generally how this sort of thing goes. Point made, point refutted, new point made (but that point is usually just more of what you said above)...and on and on it goes.
You guys have nothing to do if you have no one to hate.
Posted by: Chad | July 18, 2008 at 03:48 PM
Chad,
Last time I checked, you completely dodged my points. So let's review them so that you can answer them and not be shown to be a hypocrite.
I noted that Warren's sermons were 'how to' sermons. I also noted that he completely misuses the Bible in his sermons "I went through many of these and found they were ripped out of context, quoted from bizarre paraphrases and were only cited as a means of supporting his points."
Is this what Christian Pastors are supposed to do? Is this how Christian pastors are supposed to preach?
I don't care if he is trying to be relevant. The Bible is NOT a manual for living nor is its purpose to teach us 'god's steps' to having an abundant life.
Posted by: Kairos | July 18, 2008 at 04:00 PM
Kairos,
Your accusations are nothing but personal opinions. You say he "completely misuses the Bible in his sermons." What this really means is, "he doesn't preach the Bible the way I say it should be preached."
You say you don't care if he is trying to be relevant. Really? So you believe pastors are to be IRrelevant? You are right - the Bible is NOT a manual to teach us "steps" to an abudnant life. But it does have sound wisdom for abudnant living for today and for tomorrow. Do you disagree? And Kairos, the Bible is also NOT a weapon or tool to be used to castigate others and rip their ministry to shreds, like this site is devoted to doing.
You are not looking to extend a hand of fellowship to a fellow Christian (Warren) but only looking for more bedfellows to join you in disliking him. Probably to hide your own shame for not doing a fraction of what he is doing for the poor, the oppressed, the marginalized and the down-trodden. That, I believe, is the real issue.
Posted by: Chad | July 18, 2008 at 04:09 PM
Just a few things to keep in mind as this site and others like it continue to divide the church of Jesus Christ...
I appeal to you, brothers and sisters, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought. (1)
Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. (2)
Be on your guard; stand firm in the faith; be courageous; be strong. Do everything in love. (3)
May the God who gives endurance and encouragement give you a spirit of unity among yourselves as you follow Christ Jesus, so that with one heart and mouth you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Accept one another, then, just as Christ accepted you, in order to bring praise to God. (4)
Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity. Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, since as members of one body you were called to peace. And be thankful. Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom, and as you sing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs with gratitude in your hearts to God. And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him. (5)
Posted by: Chad | July 18, 2008 at 04:18 PM
Chad,
You do not know what I do for the poor or what I do to promote the gospel. That is another unfounded ad hominem attack on your part.
As for Relevance...can you explain to me what this passage of scripture means? Seems to me like relevance was high on the Apostle Paul's list when it came to ministry.
1 Corinthians 1: 18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."[c] 20 Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength.
1 Corinthians 2: 1When I came to you, brothers, I did not come with eloquence or superior wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God.[e] 2For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. 3I came to you in weakness and fear, and with much trembling. 4My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit's power, 5so that your faith might not rest on men's wisdom, but on God's power.
As for wisdom for an abundant life. This is not the focus of the scriptures. Again, as I have said before, my problem is not that God doesn't care about how I live my life. My problem is that I don't obey God nor really do that good of a job of applying His wisdom and neither do you.
The Bible is some piece of wisdom literature. The entire story from beginning to end is about Christ and His rescue of humanity. Selectively picking out the 'practical' verses and only preaching on those, out of context, is not how pastors are to instruct believers in the Word of God. Instead, they are called to preach the entire council of God's word. Warren does not do that. This is fact not my opinion. He averages 4 to 6 verses per sermon, ripped from context, quoted from the Message paraphrase and used to support his 'how to' approach to obedience with the stated goal of earning heavenly rewards.
That is not Christian preaching.
Posted by: Kairos | July 18, 2008 at 04:28 PM
Yeah, relevance was high on Paul's list:
1 Cor. 9:
20To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law), so as to win those not having the law. 22To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some. 23I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings.
And to those who would preach in a different manner or even with different motivations than Paul himself, what did he say?
Phil. 1:
15It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry, but others out of goodwill. 16The latter do so in love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. 17The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble for me while I am in chains.[c] 18But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice.
As for wisdom for an abudant life, you did not deny it is not there. Should it not be preached?
Your problem, Kairos, is that you cannot allow God to be God and allow the Spirit to move where the Spirit will. You guys think you have to police the church and make sure that everything is done how YOU would do it so that God can properly save people. That is just not the case.
Tell me something: How much has your complaining against Warren and "defending" done to advance the Kingdom of God? How many mouths has it fed, homes has it erected, medicines has it distributed, souls did it save, lives has it freed from bondage?
You people have so much energy to hate. If only you would devote that to simply loving others, even praying for those you perceive as your "enemies" you would actually be living out the very gospel you desire to defend.
Posted by: Chad | July 18, 2008 at 04:44 PM
Cool. So if I just get up to the pulpit and say Jesus a thousand times, that would be the best sermon that could possibly be preached. I get it.
Posted by: Jim | July 18, 2008 at 04:44 PM
I wonder if Chris would be fair and do a word cloud from a sermon a KKK leader like David Duke would preach to show how often the name Jesus Christ is invoked to support racism, or facism or any number of isms?
I preach from the OT many times and never get a chance to say the name "Jesus" until I tie it all up and relate the old with the new. If you did a word cloud on such a sermon you would find the same sort of lopsidedness. Chris, like with his calculator stunt, is just running out of things to say.
Posted by: Chad | July 18, 2008 at 04:48 PM
Chad: To all of your postings all I can say is a heartfelt, Amen, brother.
Steve: You were not there at Easter. You did not hear that what you say was lacking was, indeed, preached. As I said, you see an OUTLINE only. The resurrection was preached then and has been preached many times since.
Kairos, regarding RW's message outlines you wrote: "I went through many of these and found they were ripped out of context, quoted from bizarre paraphrases and were only cited as a means of supporting his points." That is simply untrue. How can you say this when it is so incredibly easy to just pull up these outlines and prove you wrong?
And everyone please take note, if it were possible to record Satan's conversations with his legions of demons, the name of Jesus would probably be prominent. Those word clouds are a fun little toy but irrelevant.
Does anyone here remember that before saying to the woman at the well "Go and sin no more", Jesus convicted her on her lifestyle (serial marriage) that was holding her in bondage? There is nothing unbiblical with opening people's hearts and minds up to the things in this life that can hold you back from living the abundant life God intended you to live....FOR HIM and FOR HIS GLORY. Sure, Rick Warren talks about things that affect the way we live but he always talks about the salvation that can only come from Christ. Never will you hear him say that works and obedience override the once-for-all work of the cross. If you say that, I'm really sorry, but you're lying.
Posted by: catransplant48 | July 18, 2008 at 05:39 PM
Catransplant,
There is nothing unbiblical with opening people's hearts and minds up to the things in this life that can hold you back from living the abundant life God intended you to live....FOR HIM and FOR HIS GLORY.
How well are you living that abundant life that God intended for you? God's standard regarding sin and good works is perfection. How are you fairing? Have you achieved that yet? How much has Warren's preaching been able to produce true obedience in your life?
Posted by: Chris Rosebrough | July 18, 2008 at 08:02 PM
catransplant48,
did you even click on any of those sermon links? the full sermon texts follow the outlines.
Posted by: Kairos | July 18, 2008 at 08:04 PM
Catransplant,
"And everyone please take note, if it were possible to record Satan's conversations with his legions of demons, the name of Jesus would probably be prominent. Those word clouds are a fun little toy but irrelevant."
Are you saying that Pastor Cwirla's focus on Jesus in his sermons is the same as Satan talking about Jesus?
Are you saying that Rick Warren's scant mention of Jesus in his sermons is the Biblical model for 'Christ-Centered' preaching?
It's pretty hard to make the case that Rick Warren is preaching about Christ and the gospel when he doesn't even mention either in his sermons or only mentions them in passing while he's trying to give five simple application for being obedient to God and earning heavenly rewards.
Posted by: Chris Rosebrough | July 18, 2008 at 08:10 PM
How well are you living that abundant life that God intended for you? God's standard regarding sin and good works is perfection. How are you fairing? Have you achieved that yet? How much has Warren's preaching been able to produce true obedience in your life?
Chris, what are you hoping to accomplish by this? You sound as if you are trying to discourage any Christians from sanctification. This is really sinister, Chris, and something I would not have expected even from you. It is as if you are goading people into being slaves to sin rather than righteousness.
Why not rejoice instead in the small victories we hopefully all share in? Why not rejoice along with Paul that we grow from grace to grace, glory to glory? Why do you insist on talking so negatively about the spiritual growth of others?
Posted by: Chad | July 18, 2008 at 08:41 PM
Chad,
"Why not rejoice instead in the small victories we hopefully all share in? Why not rejoice along with Paul that we grow from grace to grace, glory to glory? Why do you insist on talking so negatively about the spiritual growth of others?"
Ahhh finally a little bit of dialog.
First, I am not advocating being slaves to sin in any way shape or form. Nor am I trying to discourage Christians from Biblical Sanctification.
My point is that Warren is NOT teaching Biblical Sanctification because he is preaching a sanctification based in the law and obedience rather than the sanctification that flows from faith in Christ and is the fruit of the Holy Spirit.
Posted by: Chris Rosebrough | July 18, 2008 at 09:37 PM
My point is that Warren is NOT teaching Biblical Sanctification because he is preaching a sanctification based in the law and obedience rather than the sanctification that flows from faith in Christ and is the fruit of the Holy Spirit.
prove it.
Catransplant, who actually attends the church, says you are wrong. I agree with him.
For starters, your phrase "flows from faith in Christ and is the fruit of the Holy Spirit" is so ambiguous. Are you suggesting that faith in Christ is absent of obedience? How does it work, Chris? Do we just sit back with our arms open and wait for God to magically sanctify us? Are you saying that we do not have to be obedient to anything that is "law"?
I think you have a narrow understanding of the law. The law was not meant to be a task master as the Pharisees tried to make it. Rather it described what a people in covenantal relationship with God ought to look like. Jesus came in part to show what a person who embodies that law looks and acts like. They reflect the image of God more fully.
So what is it? Does sanctification happen the way I hoped to learn Math in school through osmosis?
Posted by: Chad | July 18, 2008 at 09:45 PM
"And everyone please take note, if it were possible to record Satan's conversations with his legions of demons, the name of Jesus would probably be prominent. Those word clouds are a fun little toy but irrelevant."
Q: Are you saying that Pastor Cwirla's focus on Jesus in his sermons is the same as Satan talking about Jesus?
A: No. I'm saying the Word Cloud stuff is ridiculous.
Posted by: catransplant48 | July 18, 2008 at 10:17 PM
catransplant48,
what is ridiculous is that Warren didn't preach about Christ on Easter and the whole sermon is there for you to read if you don't believe me.
Posted by: Kairos | July 18, 2008 at 11:06 PM
Kairos,
What is ridiculous is your accusation based on what you see in front of your eyes (a message OUTLINE). I WAS THERE. The message of salvation WAS PREACHED. It is pointless arguing back and forth with you but for the record I WAS THERE. Jesus Christ, salvation, grace, faith, the gospel...it was all laid out and spoken about. It's on the archived services on video. It's all there. I personally heard what Rick Warren preached. Here's the text, if you don't believe me. And he embellished upon this outline, talking about Jesus the whole time.
WHAT IT MEANS TO BELIEVE IN JESUS
Easter 2008
Rick Warren
“‘For God so loved the world, that He gave his only begotten Son, that
whosoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life.’” John 3:16 (KJV)
“‘Not everyone who calls me their Lord will get into the kingdom of
heaven. Only the ones who obey my Father in heaven will get in.’”
Matt. 7:21 (CEV)
“If people say they have faith, but do nothing, their faith is worth
nothing. Can faith like that save them?” James 2:14 (NCV)
FOLLOW ____________________________________
“You will be blessed whenever you follow my example.” John 13:17 (GW)
“‘I am the light of the world. If you follow me, you won't be stumbling through the darkness, because you will have the light that leads to life.’” John 8:12 (NLT)
“‘All who listen to my instructions and follow them are wise, like a man
who builds his house on solid rock.’” Matt. 7:24 (LB)
ACCEPT _____________________________________
“Those who accept God's full grace and the great gift of being made
right with him will surely have true life and rule through Jesus Christ.”
Rom. 5:17 (NCV)
“Now God says he will accept and acquit us – declare us "not guilty" – if
we trust Jesus Christ to take away our sins. And we all can be saved in
this same way, by coming to Christ, no matter who we are or what we
have been like.” Rom. 3:22 (LB)
“‘Unless you accept God's kingdom in the simplicity of a child, you'll
never get in.’” Mark 10:15 (Mes)
INVEST _______________________________________
“Give yourselves completely to God – every part of you – for you’ve been
saved from death and you want to be tools in the hands of God, to be
used for his good purposes.” Rom. 6:13 (LB)
“‘To those who use well and invest what they’ve been given by God
even more will be given to them. But for those who are unfaithful with
what they’ve been given, even what little they have will be taken from
them.’” Matt. 25:14-29 (NLT)
TRUST ________________________________________
“Just as you trusted Christ to save you, trust him for each day's
problems too; live in vital union with him.” Col. 2:6 (LB)
“We know that in all things God works for the good of those who love
him, who have been called according to his purpose.” Rom. 8:28 (NIV)
“I have the strength to face all conditions by the power that Christ
gives me.” Phil. 4:13 (TEV)
HOLD ON ______________________________________
“God can't break his word. So we who have trusted our very lives to
God have every reason to grab the promised hope with both hands
and never let go!” Heb. 6:18 (Mes)
“Nothing will ever be able to separate us from his love. Death can't, and life can't. The angels can't, and demons can't. Our fears for today, our worries about tomorrow, and even the powers of hell can't keep God's love away. Whether we’re high above the sky or in the deepest ocean, nothing in all creation will ever be able to separate us from the love of God that is revealed in Christ Jesus our Lord.” Rom. 8:38-39 (NLT)
“Jesus said, ‘I am the one who raises the dead and gives them life again.
Anyone who believes in me, even though he dies shall live again. He is
given eternal life for believing in me and shall never perish.’”
John 11:25-26 (LB)
“... Because Jesus was raised from the dead, we've been given a
brand-new life and have everything to live for, including a future in
heaven, and the future starts now!” 1 Peter 1:3-4 (Mes)
A BELIEVER’S PRAYER
Dear Jesus, I want to have a real faith in you, not a fake faith. Thank
you for dying for my sins and showing me the way to live. Today I
want to become a true believer in you. I want to follow your example.
I want to accept your gift of grace. I need your forgiveness and mercy.
You made me for a purpose and I want to invest my life in serving you.
I want to trust your wisdom and strength. And I want to hold on to
your promises when times are tough.
“Teach us to number our days and recognize how few they are; teach
us to spend them as we should.” Psalm 90:12 (LB)
Give it up, Kairos. It's too easy to prove you wrong.
Posted by: catransplant48 | July 19, 2008 at 01:22 AM
Kairos: Just to clarify that although you were referring to the Easter 2005 sermon Chris posted as his "word cloud" picture, I could easily do a word count for you on that message and tell you the exact number of times Jesus, Christ, Jesus Christ, and the Lord was mentioned (plenty!).....but my point is, I could do that for Easter 2006 and 2007 as well as 2008 (as I have shown in my last posting) and it still would not be an accurate word count based upon the outline alone.
If you were not present at these services, you didn't hear the number of times Rick Warren spoke of Jesus as he spoke about and embellished upon his OUTLINE to the congregation. I dare say that's true for many pastors, not just Rick Warren, and not just at Easter.
I want to be sure everyone reading this understands that these message outlines themselves do not serve as factual backups for the false accusations some of you are making that Rick Warren does not preach about Christ crucified or the Good News. He does.
Posted by: catransplant48 | July 19, 2008 at 04:38 AM
Catransplant48 said: "want to be sure everyone reading this understands that these message outlines themselves do not serve as factual backups for the false accusations some of you are making that Rick Warren does not preach about Christ crucified or the Good News. He does."
Come on, even Rick Warren admits that he preaches seeker sensitive messages that don't edify the beliver. Read the Purpose Driven Church chapter on preach where Rick makes the case for a different kind of message that needs to be preached on Sundays to unbelievers.
Rick Warren's sermons prove without reasonable doubt that he is either not a christian or he is a christian but he uses secualr methods and can not be considered a pastor. I know this is a harsh statement but I'm sick of walking by churches that have titles for their Sunday sermons such as "The 8 elements of relationships that will make you have wonderful relationships" etc. It's becoming sickening that the church is leaving the preaching of the gospel and replaces it with "life" advice that is useless because it's not preached in a gospel centered way.
Posted by: Bill | July 21, 2008 at 12:25 AM
"A BELIEVER’S PRAYER
Dear Jesus, I want to have a real faith in you, not a fake faith. Thank
you for dying for my sins and showing me the way to live. Today I
want to become a true believer in you. I want to follow your example.
I want to accept your gift of grace. I need your forgiveness and mercy.
You made me for a purpose and I want to invest my life in serving you.
I want to trust your wisdom and strength. And I want to hold on to
your promises when times are tough."
Notice anything missing here? Repentance, perchance? "I want to follow your example," does not qualify as repentance.
--
CS
Posted by: CS | July 21, 2008 at 03:09 PM
Chad,
"Why not rejoice instead in the small victories we hopefully all share in?"
Because they only win us eternal damnation apart from the victory that Christ has won for us. We rejoice in Christ.
"You sound as if you are trying to discourage any Christians from sanctification. This is really sinister, Chris, and something I would not have expected even from you. It is as if you are goading people into being slaves to sin rather than righteousness."
Apart from the Gospel of Christ, the law enslaves us to sin. Our sanctification does not rely in us, but in Christ in us. Our works under the law, however civilly righteous they appear, are filthy rags apart from Christ. When our good works come about from our own personal efforts, they condemn us, even if we slap a happy "Jesus tag" on them afterwards.
This is why it is important for JESUS CHRIST and his redemptive works to be preached.
Posted by: GZ | July 21, 2008 at 08:44 PM
The last line should read "redemptive work..."
Posted by: GZ | July 21, 2008 at 08:50 PM
Man - the Apostle Paul would have secular poets in some of his sermon Wordles! I think another of his letters would have been all negative - stuff about being in chains, being shipwrecked, being without sleep, blah blah blah... Why doesn't that Paul guy teach a Biblical message? He's almost as bad as Rick Warren! And don't forget those smutty Wordles by Solomen, or those "me me me" Wordles from Job, I really think the Bible missed the mark. I mean, the Wordles don't lie...
I'm pretty sure Jesus is ticked off that Rick Warren doesn't measure up to the preaching standards of people who are already believers and don't even go to his church. I wonder - when we're in Heaven and there's thousands of people who are there because God chose to work through RW's ministry, will any of this nitpicking matter? Or are WE the Pharisees - picking apart the good works of others while we sit on our butts and pretend that picking their work apart IS our work?
I will now surrender the floor to an inevitable response of legalistic, out-of-context, Scripture quotation. The chair recognizes the huffing and puffing pastor who hasn't been able to grow his church over 50 people in 10 years - is there something you'd like to say?
Posted by: Jeff T. | July 26, 2008 at 12:02 AM
Jeff,
Wow! Considering the amount of Gospel--Christ's work for us--being advocated by those you're criticizing, I would assume you'd accuse them of antinomialism before you'd accuse them of legalism.
"I will now surrender the floor to an inevitable [legalistic] response...[from] the huffing and puffing pastor who hasn't been able to grow his church over 50 people in 10 years..."
Irony, anyone? You accuse them of legalism, then set up your own legalistic demands against them?
It's not about us and our works.
"But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself."
Posted by: GZ | July 26, 2008 at 08:15 PM
Easter 2005: Embracing the Vision: God's Vision for the Rest of Your Life
Open up the pdf link. In your PDF viewer, do the following word searches:
repent, sin, forgive, forgiveness, spirit, purpose
Number of uses of the word 'repent' = 0.
Number of uses of the word 'sin' = 0.
Number of uses of the word 'gospel' = 0.
Number of uses of the word 'forgive' = 0.
Number of uses of the word 'forgiveness' = 0.
Number of uses of the word 'gift' = 0.
mber of uses of the word 'grace' = 2, but not in Eph 2:8 context
Number of uses of the word 'spirit' = 3.
Number of uses of the word 'purpose' = 58.
Again the "Mess" paraphrase is used to support his arguments. I'm sure the Psalmist had the Jungian / Myers Briggs SHAPE program in mind when he wrote:
“You shaped me first inside, then out; you formed me in my mother's womb.”
Ps. 139:13 (Mes)
Spiritual Gifts
Heart
Abilities
Personality
Experiences
vs
13 For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother's womb. (NIV)
Enough said.
He concludes with "All I know is when I said, “I’m giving up my plan for Your purposes,” my life got better dramatically. That’s your invitation today. "
Is this "salvation by works" or is it just "works".
Posted by: anon. | July 27, 2008 at 02:54 AM
GZ - I stand by my point. I'm sick and tired of people bashing Rick Warren because he doesn't measur eup to thier standards. Most of the people doing the bashing are, in fact, pastors who haven't been able to grow their church over 50 people in 10 years (that's not legalism - just pointing out the fact that they're not really qualified to judge excellence in pastoral leadership) or basement bloggers who probably don't serve or tithe (you know, the kind of people who hop form church to church, constantly being "offended" by something).
I'm very familiar with what Rick Warren teaches...
Is it heavy duty? No.
Is it lightweight? Yes.
Does it cover the key points of the Gospel? Yes.
Are people who give their lives to Christ as a result of His ministry going to Heaven? Yes.
SO WHAT'S THE BIG, FREAKIN' DEAL?
Posted by: Jeff T. | July 27, 2008 at 06:40 AM
Jeff,
It is not the responsibility of a pastor to grow the number of people in his church. This is God's role. It is the responsibility of the pastor to properly proclaim Law and Gospel and to shepherd those whom God has entrusted him with.
Posted by: Steve Newell | July 27, 2008 at 07:12 AM
Steve, it's not just "...the responsibility of the pastor to properly proclaim Law and Gospel and to shepherd those whom God has entrusted him with"
It's the responsibility of the pastor to to do it in the most effective manner possible. It's the responsibility of the pastor to be constantly working on his communication and leadership skills in order to teach more effectively teach.
Most churches under 50 IN AMERICA are that size because the pastor either won't work on himself to improve his skill set or he' snot called. It's that simple.
Please note that I said "most" - as in, the overwhelming majority. The old adage is true "Work like it all depends on you and pray like it all depends on God."
If we're being blunt, honest and authentic here, we'd have to say that when you walk into most churches under 50 in America, you can pretty much tell immediately why they're that size.
Those are the guys I'm talking about.
Posted by: Jeff T. | July 27, 2008 at 12:41 PM
Jeff,
Thanks for ripping most pastors. I hope you never have to live is a rural town where the local church had only 50 member.
If size is that all that matter, then Joel Osteen makes Rick Warren look bush league. Joel must be the better pastor since he refuses to preach Law and Gospel to those who listen to him.
Posted by: Steve Newell | July 27, 2008 at 02:07 PM