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Bill

OK, actually question 44 talks about rewards in heaven based on works. It is question 45 that mentions that faith is not a gift of God but a decision that a is made "I see it this way, the decision that I make during this time on earth indicates the kind of heart I have"

Salvation - Unbelievers
Question: What happens to people who don�t believe in Jesus?

Answer: The Bible tells us, in Hebrews 9 that "it is given to mankind once to die and after that comes the judgment." It's a verse that reminds us of the truth, that there are no second chances after we live on earth. However, God gives us many second chances during our life on this earth. By that I mean, if someone rejects Christ the first time they hear about him, God will come to them again and again to let them know the truth that he loves them. God does not give up on us. But the Bible teaches us that it is on this earth that we make the decisions that will last for an eternity. I see it this way, the decision that I make during this time on earth indicates the kind of heart I have and the decisions that I am going to make even if I am given an entire eternity to think about it. Those who chose to be with Christ here on this earth will be with him through eternity. Those who choose to be with Christ here on this earth will be with him throughout eternity. Those who choose to be apart from Christ on this earth will be apart from him throughout eternity. That is what hell is, a place where we are totally apart from God - his goodness, his grace, his power and his love. The truth is that God doesn't send anyone to hell. He sent his only son to earth to die for us so that none of us would have to go there. The only way that we can go to hell now is by rejecting God's saving solution in his son Jesus Christ.

Chad

Bill,
Nothing Warren says in either of these two questions contradicts what has been said in orthodox Christian circles for 2000 years.

He is right: decision we make today have an affect on the kingdom of tomorrow.

I, however, would take issue with Warren in the time one has to be saved. I am not convinced that God cannot continue to woo the unrepentant even after death. Jesus is the Lord of the living and the dead.

If you don't like Warren's answer above because of the word "decision" simply replace it with "repent"

peace,
Chad

Bill

More on Rick Warren's salvation by works:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzeETJTE1W4

Chad

Seeing as how that video was produced by Chris R, I wonder which side of the fence Chris is on now? Chris has already admitted on this thread that Warren does NOT teach salvation by works but by grace through faith. So which is it?

As for the video, Warren is correct. Religion without love is pointless. Most evangelicals think that faith = belief. That is where the lie is. Warren is speaking out against the lie in the church today (the lie perpetuated by sites like these) that all you have to do to be a Christian is give mental assent to a set of doctrines or beliefs. That is not faith. Even the demons beleive. Warren is preaching to those who have long thought that just because they have their T's crossed and I's dotted in the "belief" department that they are on God's good side. Do you guys think you are on God's good side just because you think you believe properly? Scripture is FILLED with condemnations of those who think correctly yet do not care about mercy or love or righteousness. God wants the heart - and Warren is dead on in saying what matters is how we love God and our neighbor.

Notice he did NOT say that we are SAVED because we first show we can love well.

Bill

Chad: "He is right: decision we make today have an affect on the kingdom of tomorrow."

This decision theology gives no credit to god and gives credit to the heart of man for salvation. God's work of salvation is His 100% and faith is a gift from God. It is God's decision who enters the kingdom, not man's.

Rick Warren: "I see it this way, the decision that I make during this time on earth indicates the kind of heart I have and the decisions that I am going to make even if I am given an entire eternity to think about it. Those who chose to be with Christ here on this earth will be with him through eternity. Those who choose to be with Christ here on this earth will be with him throughout eternity."

Chad

Bill,
Do you believe as St. Paul did that we are "co-workers" or "co-laborers" with God? This isn't just about getting into heaven. I hope your understanding of salvation is far more robust than that. The fact is that we make decisions every day. You can make good ones or poor ones. The Holy Spirit is continually at work in the world convicting of sin and leading people into truth, to Jesus Christ. Yet that is not robotic - there is a symbiosis going on, a RELATIONSHIP. Certainly you are not advocating even more passivity in the Christian life, are you?

So yes, decisions we make today, I believe, are part of the work we do in union with the God of all Creation in bringing about part of his rule, his kingdom, on earth. We are co laborers with God in this work. This is a humbling and awesome thing!

peace,
Chad

Jason

Chad---

This post actually freaked me out a little. When I was first saved, I attended a church that had just started PDL. I actually made a spreadsheet so similar to the one chris made--like, SCARY similar.

Then I spent 2 years under complete and total condemnation. I began to distrust God, preachers, etc. because they kept telling me as a Christian I should have Joy. I started getting all paranoid because I thought they were all messing with me.

So I started looking into scripture to figure out what I ws doing wrong.

Then, all of a sudden, I was free. I found out the same thing that Chris' spreadheet was meant to communicate. NOTHING NOTHING NOTHING NOTHING I *DO* makes me a better Christian. Grace. Abiding. Sitting at the master's feet, and then obeying His voice when he tells me "feed this person. encourage that person".

Chris is right though--this deeds stuff can VERY easily produce condemnation to the Christian whose BIBLICAL foundation is not strong.

Douglas

catransplant48: "So you have heard Rick Warren preach the gospel (are you listening, all those of you who have been blogging on this site, claiming "Rick Warren preaches a false gospel?)"

"are you listening, all those of you who have been blogging on this site, claiming "Rick Warren preaches a false gospel?"

Why did you need to make that smart comment? Do you think you are real clever or something? Where is your Christian graciousness? I lack graciousness, show me how to be more gracious when dealing with false teachers and false teachings that are leading millions astray like Warren's are.

Rick Warren does preach a false gospel, he preaches a "Purpose Driven gospel" which is no gospel all. Rick Warren waters down and weakens the full-orbed doctrinally sound biblical gospel, he is a master at it. He is dangerous. Thank God that God is saving some in spite of Warren's false purpose driven gospel. If his purpose driven gospel did not have some of the true gospel mixed in with it it would not go down with the masses as rapidly as it has. I have never heard Rick Warren preach the biblical Gospel in all of its fullness. Sure I have heard bits and pieces of the Gospel here and there to back up his purpose driven teachings. He wants purpose driven disciples not true biblical disciples. If he truly wanted to see biblical disciples he would drop the Purpose Driven program like a ton of hot bricks.

Your defense of Rick Warren's false teachings and his Scripture twisting is inexcusable.

I find Rick Warren's teachings and Scripture twisting, which he does constantly, a real stumbling block and makes me doubt whether Christianity is really true or not? Is it just a big con job, a big rip of, because at times it sure looks like it. I struggle with this. The visible church seems to be riddled with false teachers and I find that very discouraging, nearly driving me into total despair. At times in the past, I found more integrity, openness and honesty with my mates in the bike gangs. Thank God I do not rely on Rick Warren as a pastor or teacher to teach me the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, because he doesn't. He mixes truth and error constantly and he does it with some twisted Scriptures in that Apostles Creed sermon as well. Check them out in reliable translations of the Scriptures and you will see which Scriptures he has twisted.

His Embracing the Vision: God's Vision for the Rest of Your Life message is absolutely riddled with Scripture twisting same as his Purpose Driven Life book and it would take a book to show how he has done it.

The way Rick Warren twists and distorts and tortures the word of God is sinful, there is no excuse for him and he will have no excuse on judgment day if he does not repent of the gross evil of mishandling God's word.

Here is the very first verse Rick Warren tortures in his PDL book and in that Embracing the Vision: God's Vision for the Rest of Your Life:

Ephesians 1:11
A similar type of thing happens in the very next paragraph of the book. Warren makes a biblically defensible statement, “You must build your life on eternal truths, not pop psychology, success-motivation, or inspirational stories.” Excellent! But rather than backing this truth with proper Scripture, he decides to use a distorted paraphrase of Ephesians 1:11 found in The Message once again. It reads, It’s in Christ that we find out who we are and what we are living for. Long before we first heard of Christ and got our hopes up, he had his eyes on us, had designs on us for glorious living, part of the overall purpose he is working out in everything and everyone. Warren says that this quote gives us three insights into our purpose, the first of which is, “You discover your identity and purpose through a relationship with Jesus Christ.”
In analyzing these comments we begin with a literal translation of the verse: Also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will (NASB). This verse says nothing about discovering our purpose through a relationship with Christ. It speaks about our position in Christ – our eternal inheritance in Him. This verse tells us that we have been made the heirs of God; through no merit of our own we were given the right to all the blessings of salvation, both now and in eternity. It speaks of being “predestined according to His purpose,” not finding our purpose or identity.”

"To show that the abuse of Matthew 16:25 is not an isolated incidence, let us consider the passage Warren uses on the un-numbered cover page of his book where he dedicates it to “you.” Here is the passage he cites: “It’s in Christ that we find out who we are and what we are living for. Long before we first heard of Christ, . . . he had his eye on us, had designs on us for glorious living, part of the overall purpose he is working out in everything and everyone” (Ephesians 1:11 Msg. as cited by Warren). Here is what a real Bible says: “also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will” (Ephesians 1:11). First of all let us consider to whom Paul is speaking. It is clear from the context of Ephesians 1 the “we” means believers, not people in general. Warren is writing to people in general. He tells his readers that if they do not have a relationship with Jesus he will explain later how to have one (Warren: 20), which shows he is not writing just to Christians. Furthermore, Warren’s “Bible” says, “we find out who we are.” This suits his motif of a spiritual journey of self-discovery. But the real Ephesians 1:11 says nothing about finding out who we are. It tells us that Christians have obtained an inheritance. Warren’s version does not even mention that concept. It says, “he had his eye on us.” The Bible says that Christians were “predestined according to His purpose.” The pseudo-translation used by Warren does not even have the concept of predestination. The real Bible teaches God’s sovereign purposes as the ground of the believer’s hope, and assures us that God’s comprehensive sovereignty means that nothing can thwart God’s eternal purposes. Warren’s “Bible” citation obscures this truth and implies universalism in the way he applies it.

It is sinful to claim to speak authoritatively for God when one is not. It is sinful to add to or take away from God’s Word. One cannot introduce a statement “the Bible says” and then cite what the Bible does not say. Warren does this many times. The paraphrased Bibles he uses are often not even legitimate paraphrases. To paraphrase is to say the same thing in different words. When one says something totally different conceptually, then those words have no relationship to the meaning of the original author. To do this with the Bible is forbidden (Deuteronomy 4:2; Revelation 22:18, 19). To claim the weight of infallible, inerrant inspiration and use this to teach concepts totally unrelated to those of the Biblical authors is to take the Lord’s name in vain. Warren does this often." - The Gospel: A Method or a Message? How the Purpose Driven Life Obscures the Gospel

There are so many more that it is just disheartening and discouraging to go through them all. That is one of the reasons why I do not use Rick Warren's teachings, they are just riddled with Scripture twisting and distortions from false translations and unworthy paraphrases.

It seems that Rick Warren's disciples are so devoted to Rick Warren and his Purpose Driven Life Movement that they cannot see how Rick Warren tortures the Scriptures, starting with Ephesians 1:11 in the above article and also in Rick Warren's Purpose Driven Life book. Why? Is it blind loyalty? Is God blinding them? Is Satan blinding them? Is it their own sinful; pride and arrogance blinding them? Something is radically wrong. They wont even admit that Rick Warren twists Scriptures. WHY?

Show me how can anyone truly trust Rick Warren teachings when he twists God's word so much. And if you deny he constantly twists the Scriptures then you are deceived yourself also.

I believe this video here The "Seeker"-Sensitive "Gospel" Leads Men Straight to Hell applies to the Purpose Driven Movement as well but I would use the words "lake of fire" instead of the word hell because the word "hell" is a word incorrectly used by translators. Hell is not the lake of fire.


catransplant48

Bill,

Choose Christ, gain eternal life. Reject Christ, expect eternal separation from Him.

There's nothing incorrect about either of those statements. Rick Warren is NOT saying what you seem to be interpreting: that it's solely "our choice". He's NOT saying God isn't omniscient; that God does not know ahead of time who is and isn't going to choose life. That's taking a lot of license with what was actually stated, my friend.

As for the rewards portion you disagree with, there are Scriptures pointing to that (referring to a Crown of Life, Crown of Rejoicing, Crown of Righteousness, Crown of Glory, etc.); however the whole thing is a bit of a mystery....some scholars believe we will all lay any rewards we get at the feet of Jesus anyway. The point Warren is trying to make here is that nobody can earn "brownie points" with God; and that all of us need to daily, hourly, minute by minute check our motive for serving, because God knows all and sees all. Again, nothing wrong with that.

catransplant48

Wow, Douglas, get a grip, man. Your blood pressure must be going through the roof. I'm simply not going to rise to your bait. It is a tragedy to see someone pour so much venom into tearing down a pastor that loves Christ and has a heart for the lost. Your energy could be so much better spent.

Phil

"Most evangelicals think that faith = belief. That is where the lie is. Warren is speaking out against the lie in the church today (the lie perpetuated by sites like these) that all you have to do to be a Christian is give mental assent to a set of doctrines or beliefs. That is not faith. Even the demons beleive. Warren is preaching to those who have long thought that just because they have their T's crossed and I's dotted in the "belief" department that they are on God's good side."

Actually, the Roman Catholics are the group who asserts most strongly that faith consists of intellectual assent to doctrine (and those Evangelicals who believe so are very close to Rome, even though they are generally unaware of it). Calvin, instead, defined the essence of faith as love (i.e. obedience). I would note, however, that St. Paul in 1 Cor. 13 certainly differentiates, among other things, between faith and love.

It took Luther (and the Lutherans) to assert (with Paul and all the saints) that the essence of faith is fiducia, that is, trust.

Faith in what? Trust in what? Trust in the saving work of Christ from sin.

Love, works, obedience, and all those other words are synonyms for the fulfilment of the Law, which springs from the New Man which the Holy Spirit has created in the believer. In these things we are indeed co-laborers. However, with regards to our salvation we have done and can do nothing.

Chad, when and to whom is the Gospel to be preached?

Douglas

catransplant48,

you have not dealt with Rick Warren's misuse of Ephesians 1:11, you have completely side-stepped it. You are putting the blame back on me. I have no "venom," poison, towards Rick Warren, as a radically corrupt, sinful fellow human being I am no different than him, he is no super apostle or some such thing, he is no God's special anointed above criticism. You lie to even suggest I have "venom" towards Warren himself. I am a radically corrupt, totally depraved, sinful human being as well who cannot do one thing to cause God to love me more. You have lied about me before now so it is not surprising you do it again. Hurtful, yes. Surprising, no. You lied about pastor Bob DeWaay and you haven't retracted that lie as of yet, so why should I trust you? After all is said and done, did not Rick Warren say; "Never believe second- hand sources about Saddleback. They are ALWAYS wrong." That is a lie by Rick Warren isn't it? It is not the truth is it? There are many second hand sources that are correct about the false teachings and Scripture twisting of Saddleback and the Purpose Driven Empire. You sure are wrong on a lot of things too, so I do not trust you either. You need to repent of the sin of lying about me. Can you? Have you received the gift of faith and repentance where you are able to repent of your sins or is your faith just a said faith and not the real faith?

I hate Rick Warren's false purpose driven teachings and I hate his torturing of God's word. If you say he doesn't, it is you that lies and the truth is not in you.

If you truly loved the truth you would point out how Rick Warren has tortured Ephesians 1:11 to suit his deceptive purpose driven ideas. And then you would move on to the next verse Rick Warren distorts. Would you even go and show Rick Warren himself how he has mishandled God's Word? Would he listen to you? Who would Warren listen to?

Hidden treasure!

(J. C. Philpot, "Meditations on the Holy Spirit")

"Oh, how I love your law! I meditate on it all
day long!" Psalm 119:97

"Truly, I love your commands more than gold,
even the finest gold!" Psalm 119:127

"Your decrees are my treasure; they are truly
my heart's delight!" Psalm 119:111

To a spiritual mind, sweet and soul-rewarding is
the searching of the Word as for hidden treasure.

No sweeter, no better employment can engage
heart and hands than, in the spirit . . .
of prayer and meditation,
of separation from the world,
of holy fear,
of a desire to know the will of God and do it,
of humility, simplicity, and godly sincerity,
to seek to enter into those heavenly mysteries which
are stored up in the Scriptures; and this, not to furnish
the head with notions, but to feed the soul with the
bread of life!

Truth, received in the love and power of it . . .
informs and establishes the judgment,
softens and melts the heart,
warms and draws upward the affections,
makes and keeps the conscience alive and tender,
is the food of faith,
is the strength of hope,
is the mainspring of love.

"My child, listen to Me and treasure My instructions.
Search for them as you would for lost money or
hidden treasure!" Proverbs 2:1,4

catransplant48

Douglas, seriously....you truly need to calm down.

Jim

As I have been watching this blog since the pastor conference where Chris was hosted, I thought there might be some dialog of value here. What I think we've found, however, is that Chris has drifted right back to being focused on tearing down Rick Warren. It has little to do with the truth, he and his defenders have no interest at all in the truth. Their self appointed mission is to bring Rick Warren down. Plain and simple. Their arguments are complicated, twist bible verses, and fail to capture any representation of truth. I haven't seen any attempt at an honest dialog. I applaud Rick Warren for reaching out to Chris and others like him, but I can see that it won't change anything. As I have discovered, every pastor has critics. Rick Warren's are more public and larger in number because of his significant impact on the Church. As I have had a number of pastors tell me about their critics that make denominational issues more important than they are, it is best just to ignore them. Engaging them is just a waste of time, and has no value to fulfilling God's will for the Church.

Mike

I think I have to echo Jim's sentiments. I took a six month break from extreme theology because of the nasty tone and unloving spirit that had begun to permeate the site from Warren detractors. I returned because I heard about Chris and Rick Warren's meeting. I was concerned when Chris started posting his notes of the conference and the strident and angry tone that was evident in them, but when Chris posted a call for Christian love and withstood the accusations of switching sides, from his former supporters, I truly thought that real dialogue would begin. But the last three posts have shown that Chris and most of the other anti-Warren crowd have not begun to listen, they have made their decisions and dialogue is pointless. This site is their place to tear down a brother in Christ, and they really should go back and read I Corinthians 3:

But I, brothers, could not address you as spiritual people, but as people of the flesh, as infants in Christ. I fed you with milk, not solid food, for you were not ready for it. And even now you are not yet ready, for you are still of the flesh. For while there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not of the flesh and behaving only in a human way? For when one says, “I follow Paul,” and another, “I follow Apollos,” are you not being merely human?

What then is Apollos? What is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, as the Lord assigned to each. I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the growth. So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God who gives the growth. He who plants and he who waters are one, and each will receive his wages according to his labor. For we are God's fellow workers. You are God's field, God's building.

According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and someone else is building upon it. Let each one take care how he builds upon it. For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

Do you not know that you are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in you? If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him. For God's temple is holy, and you are that temple.

Let no one deceive himself. If anyone among you thinks that he is wise in this age, let him become a fool that he may become wise. For the wisdom of this world is folly with God. For it is written, “He catches the wise in their craftiness,” and again, “The Lord knows the thoughts of the wise, that they are futile.” So let no one boast in men. For all things are yours, whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or the present or the future—all are yours, and you are Christ's, and Christ is God's.

Chris, I will echo what I said six months ago, I was drawn to your site because I thought you were a defender of the faith and had some excellent Christian apologetics material, but now I see that you are a defender of a theological view, and brother, faith and theology are just not the same thing.

All of you fellow seekers of truth are in my prayers, even those of you who refuse to see the truth that is in front of you.

-Blessings

Chad

I agree with both Jim and Mike 100%. I had taken a break from this site and now wish I had not even peeked in. This is nothing more than propaganda for one's own personal slant on faith, and an unloving, uncharitable one at that.

I see no point in continuing dialog.

grace and peace,
Chad

catransplant48

Jim, Mike and Chad, I couldn't agree more. I had a glimmer of hope for Chris post-conference but the juvenille calculator stunt shut that right down. The word cloud exercise, too. Both are just plain ridiculous.

Douglas wondered why I hadn't responded to specifics he posted....I truthfully couldn't follow what he wrote (it seemed to switch back and forth between Rick Warren's comments and his own opinions)...and since it was laced with such violent hatred and rage I just wasn't willing to sink to that level.

I hope and pray all of the people commenting on this site who believe in their hearts they are doing a service to the Body of Christ by tearing down Rick Warren realize their error. He has done so much to take the gospel to the lost. The sad thing is, most of the people tearing him down have never met him. But like Rick says, he knows it's God's opinion of him and his ministry that matters most and he rests in that. Amen.

In light of the futility of hoping for sensible Christian dialoging, I, too, bid farewell to this site for now.


Douglas

"....and since it was laced with such violent hatred and rage I just wasn't willing to sink to that level."

Oh dear, bad, mass of sin Dougie. If I could get my hands on false teaching I would strangle it to death but it's real tuff laying hands on the necks of false teachings.

"In light of the futility of hoping for sensible Christian dialoging, I, too, bid farewell to this site for now."

False teaching drives me insensible, sorry about that. Ya aint Richy Rich Abanes are ya by any chance? See ya. Don't forget to quietly close the door on ya way out. Ya wombat. ROFLOL. Oppps! I sound like a Todd Bent there. Bam! Bam! Violent. Naughty Dougie.

Now where did I park me Harley? Oh, Saddleback Drive. I better be quick some crook down there may pinch it.

Jim Pierce

WOW! I thought this was "Extreme Theology" and not the "Mortal Combat" blog! Those of you defending Rick Warren might want to check your comments about others posting here... you all seem to be complaining about the very thing you are doing.

Bill

Jim Pierced wrote: "WOW! I thought this was "Extreme Theology" and not the "Mortal Combat" blog!"

Bill: There's been people that died for the faith in the past. The Reformation took a violent direction in Germany with the peasants revolts and so forth. This blog may not look the prettiest but it's still very peaceful compared to previous religious strife.

Jim: "I have discovered, every pastor has critics. Rick Warren's are more public and larger in number because of his significant impact on the Church. As I have had a number of pastors tell me about their critics that make denominational issues more important than they are, it is best just to ignore them. Engaging them is just a waste of time, and has no value to fulfilling God's will for the Church."

Bill: Go ahead and ignore all you want. Fact is the main media is not ignoring it, Rick Warren is divisive and the Wall Street Journal wrote that he is tearing the church apart. Rick Warren drove Christ and christians out of the church, and a built a seeker sensitive and purpose driven church in the name of Christ. His sermons offend believing christians and please unbelievers or seekers, in a christian church the opposit ought to happen, the unbeliever will be offended by the gospel and the believer will be plaesed. Rick Warren did it intentionally, in his book the Purpose Driven Church he wrote that there would be opposition from christians to his seeker sensitive preaching, but he also said he was going ahead even if christians leave seeker sensitive churches. Well, they left and they are saying that Rick Warren is a false teacher and an apostate. Rick dished it out and drove many christians out of the church, so Rick, you reap what you sow.

catransplant48: "I hope and pray all of the people commenting on this site who believe in their hearts they are doing a service to the Body of Christ by tearing down Rick Warren realize their error."

Bill: I do appreciate your prayers. With that said Rick Warren started a war on christianity, his second reformation as he calls it is a departure from biblical christianity. His led the cleansing of christians from churches that turned seeker sensitive and opposed Rick Warren. If Rick Warren was doing the work of Christ, then I would obviously have to repent of tearing him down, however the seeker sensitive message of Rick Warren is utterly unbiblical.

Keith

Chris R: Thanks for standing firm and speaking the truth.

catransplant48: You stated - "I hope and pray all of the people commenting on this site who believe in their hearts they are doing a service to the Body of Christ by tearing down Rick Warren realize their error." I left a congregation that held up RW and his PDC/PDL programs as the end all to be all. I saw absolutely no benefit from the congregation going through those programs...in fact, people like myself left because of the shallowness. RW is a genius at marketing.

Jim Pierce

Bill: There's been people that died for the faith in the past. The Reformation took a violent direction in Germany with the peasants revolts and so forth. This blog may not look the prettiest but it's still very peaceful compared to previous religious strife.

Hi Bill,

I understand your points, but my point wasn't that this blog isn't relatively peaceful. :)

Anonymous

Chad,

The only thing redeemable about this site are your comments. Thank Goodness there are people like you willing to speak so candidly against this "propaganda".

Unloving and uncharitable were very gracious ways of describing what happens here. It's so filled with lies and arrogance that it’s actually sad. I wish I could agree that Extreme Theology was "defending the faith" 6 months ago. It just simply wasn't. Not a year ago, not 6 months ago and definitely not today. It is the ranting of an arrogant, and even cruel man. What the creator of Extreme Theology desperately needs is our prayers.

He tried to verbalize the “truth” with his posting on June 6th. Everyone missed the true message.

“I confess that I do NOT love God with all of my heart, I HAVE taken the Lord’s name in vain, I have NOT kept the Sabbath, I have NOT honored and obeyed my parents, I HAVE murdered, I HAVE committed adultery, I HAVE stolen, I HAVE lied and I HAVE coveted everything that belongs to my neighbor including his wife, his car, his clothes, and is entertainment center.
All of these sins I have committed since becoming a Christian. All of these sins I have committed THIS WEEK and every time I break even one of the commandments the Bible says that I am guilty of breaking the ENTIRE law.
James 2:10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.
I am sick with sin through and through. I don’t need good advice, I need good news.”

He means 90% of this literally. What Chris Rosebrough needs is not good news. That has already been given to him. What he needs is to seek forgiveness from those he has hurt, lied to, offended, stolen from, committed adultery with, and coveted from.

Chris needs to REPENT, to truly repent. Turn away from his sin and be sanctified. Practice this rather than being so consumed with his sin and himself. He'd be wise to focus on Jesus and his sanctification. Stop putting the focus on HIM and stop judging others. Practice what he preaches. He claims Rick Warren is having a negative impact on Christianity. He really needs to have a look in the mirror.

I commend you Chad in seeing no point to this dialog. I will follow your lead.

Eugene Roberts

As I followed this thread my heart sank lower and lower. At the moment I feel like crying because of the unloving way comments where made. Brothers and sisters this is not the way it should be. Please read this series of articles before making your next comment: http://herescope.blogspot.com/search?q=Contentiously+Contending . We tend to read other people's comments and while still reading it we make up our mind about their intent, heart and tone and before thinking about what they really meant we start forming a counter argument and our fingers start typing a counter attack. This is not discussion it is an argument. In a discussion I should read the other person's comment, try to be objective, think about it, look for the truth in their comment and how it speaks to me. Only then I should start my response on the keyboard of my laptop that needs replacement.

Eugene Roberts

Chris,

Thank you for allowing comments on your blog even from people who oppose you vehemently.

I want to make an observation. I think that there is a fundamental difference between Rick Warren and his critics like you that need not stand against each other but can actually work together for good. The fundamental difference is this: Rick Warren - Truth should be advanced. Critics - Truth must be preserved.

It is easy to pitch these against each other and take the road of either or. But I think it need not be like this. I think there is room for both and actually a need for the two approaches to work together which is much more difficult to work out. Advancing truth is risky business because while doing the advancement one can easily lose perspective of the fundamental truths that should never change. This is where preservers of the truth can play a role. While Rick Warren is trying to advance the truth he needs people along side him that can preserve the truth. I just wonder if Rick subconsciously (or consciously) realises this and therefore reached out to you, Chris, in inviting you to the Purpose Driven conference?

Every one of us has faults that we ourselves are blind for but other people can see clearly. The sad truth is that rather than helping each other with these faults we attack each other causing the attacked person to go into defence mode and most often denying the problem/fault. This is not the picture of the body of Christ that Paul gave us in 1 Cor 12.

1 Cor 12:14 For in fact the body is not one member but many.
15 If the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I am not of the body,” is it therefore not of the body? 16 And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I am not of the body,” is it therefore not of the body? 17 If the whole body were an eye, where would be the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where would be the smelling? 18 But now God has set the members, each one of them, in the body just as He pleased. 19 And if they were all one member, where would the body be?
20 But now indeed there are many members, yet one body. 21 And the eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you”; nor again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.” 22 No, much rather, those members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary. 23 And those members of the body which we think to be less honorable, on these we bestow greater honor; and our unpresentable parts have greater modesty, 24 but our presentable parts have no need. But God composed the body, having given greater honor to that part which lacks it, 25 that there should be no schism in the body, but that the members should have the same care for one another. 26 And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; or if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it.
The New King James Version, (Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson Publishers) 1998, c1982.

My prayer is that God will make us one through the power of the Holy Spirit as Christ and the Father is one.

Eugene Roberts

Oops!
"...as Christ and the Father are one."
Sorry, Afrikaans doesn't have "are" and "am" only "is". I often make that mistake. If I make other grammar or spelling mistakes please let me know so that I don't stay blind for them. :)

Mark, Archbishop of Brighton

Chad, et al,

I am sorry, but what a bunch of drama queens. "For in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, practice the very same things." In other words you are guilty of behaving toward Chris as you complain of him acting toward Rich Warren. The difference is that he thinks the gospel is on the line. I will bet any of you a dollar to a donut you cannot restate Chris argument, which would show that you understood what he is saying.

And now, having been grievously wounded, I will follow your lead and flounce from this discussion thread. Flounce: To move in a lively or bouncy manner: The children flounced around the room in their costumes; or To move with exaggerated or affected motions: flounced petulantly from the thread.

anonymous

I haven't been here all that long but now I am saddened to see the way this site has gone. I respect those who try to defend Rick Warren because I too believed he is sincere but I can't in good conscience defend him or his teachings.

I am saddened by the way that Christianity has been hijacked by a self-proclaimed stealth movement that is going under the radar. It's an interesting comment from Rick. When the US military uses the word stealth it normally means 1. they don't want to be detected. and 2. they want to destroy something. And why would a Christian leader need to be stealth? And why should some Christians be offended by the purpose driven model?

What will the future hold for the church? Perhaps this movement is necessary for those who truly believe and want to uphold the Gospel to pick a side - truth or compromise.

Light can have no communion with darkness. Friendship with God is enmity with the world. sadly, mr warren name drops catholic mystics, an erotic feminist author, not rebuking them but saying what they say, agreeing with it. These people don't care about the gospel yet they are frequently quoted. Jungian personality and psychology analysis in what is called the SHAPE program. Where does it end?
These things do not find their origin in God's Word. These people and ideas are opposed to the Gospel. They stand in opposition to it and to the church, not as the institution but God's people.

I appeal to those caught in the purpose driven paradigm - for that is what it is - to look into these concerns. We cannot be swept away by every new fad, every new craze. It is a new paradigm. It is a new way of thinking. A new way of looking at the world. A new reality.
But why do we need a new paradigm? We already have God's word. Isn't that enough? Everything is in there. There's even a couple of church health awards given out in Revelation by the Lord Jesus himself. Look it up. Are they for fulfilling Rick Warren's 5 purposes? No. The Creator and King of the whole entire universe has his own definitions. (it's important to remember who we're talking about here)

Mr Warren claims a new reformation is on the horizon. Can he predict the movement of God's Spirit? No. That would make him God. perhaps he is the inventor of perpetual revival. But RW didn't invent revival, or reformation or regeneration. God did. Revival is not a product that you invent and market and sell. Or is it? Is revival achieved through methods, or through the work of the Spirit? Has Rick Warren got revival in a box? How does faith come? From purpose driven franchises? No, from hearing the word of God, the good news, that Christ died for sins and raised on the third day according to the Scriptures. These are the things of first importance which many many have lost sight of. the main thing is to make sure the main thing remains the main thing. the church didn't need the purpose driven paradigm in Acts 2 when 3000 were added in one day. The church simply needs the Word of God and the humility to allow it to work on our hearts.

Lootershootersnakeeater

Hey guys,

Been in the evangelical side of things, been to Warren's church, have friends that go to Warren's church. I wouldn't go back if you paid me. Rosebrough is dead on with this excel sheet. The Law is here to convict us of our unrighteousness take us to our knees and drag our silly kiesters to the Cross. Rosebrough that thing is genius. I love it. I sent it to some of my Saddleback friends and got a firestorm back and one guy even threw in why they don't baptize babies...anyway I think this whole thing is about not understanding the catagories. I don't think most evangelicals get the law/gospel catagories. It seems they see that law/gospel are like taking a chocolate milkshake and a vanilla milkshake throwing it all in a blender and turning on the blender. Blech! It seems very confusing for them. When talking law/gospel it might be helpful to define each for them. I think that passage in James that says if we screwed up one time even in one part of the law then we are basically screwed for the whole deal. Besides aren't we born into sin? So from before we even have a choice of things we are already sinful. I think that's law. Jesus said He came to live the life we never could and then be a sacrifice for us all. I think that's gospel. The santification part has something to do with looking good before God. How many evangelicals want to hear God say to them "...thou good and faithful servant"? But I don't think any will. That is reserved for Christ's work. I think sanctifaction comes without our knowledge or it's unintentional. It's something given to us by the Holy Spirit as we confess our sins and reach a deeper understanding of just how wretched we are and what Christ has done for us. I'm no theologian like all you very smart people but I thought I'd throw my 2 cents in just for grins.

Jim Crigler

This works great in OpenOffice.org as well.

Chris P.

Chad is the guy that says;
"that Gen 1 and 2 is a profound truth that extends beyond literalism?"

This is code for "intrepreting scripture through the lens of atheistic evolution."

Warren and his devotees profess rehashed roman catholicism.
This is neo-pelagian,neo-deist,neo-legalist,theology.
Chris R. is quite right, not only are we not saved by our own works we are not sanctified by them either.
In reading Eph 2 men jump at verses 8 and 9 and ignore verse 10. We must also read James 2 in light of Eph 2:10;John 14:11-13 and Phillipians 2:12-13.


Score:
Word of God: 1
Warren and Chad: -10

BTW I failed so miserably on the heavenly rewards meter, that I almost reverted back to my rcc background and ran to confession. 8^0
That will most likely be the next step for "Warrenus I" and his return to holy mother the church.

Chris P.

Looking over the comments again, I must say that Chad makes the arrogant assumption all the holier than thou do-gooders make,i.e. that the unloving fundies do nothing in terms of "good works"
I beg to differ, as I know better from personal experience. I will leave it that.

The remark that theology and faith are exclusive of each other is laughable also.
Theology based accurately on the Word as revealed by the Spirit go part and parcel with true faith. Jesus is the author and finisher,alpha and omega of faith. Jesus was Word before the Word became flesh. Jesus cannot be separated from the scriptures.
John 5:36-47;John 1:1-3 and v.14;Colossians 1:16-17;Hebrews 12;2
;2Chron 20:12.

Randy

Not fair! I got a 300 on the test and didn't get a reward! I know my neighbor got his reward and I want what he has!!! Oh wait, I guess we should make that a 290 for coveting. No, maybe just 280 because of lieing... Darn!

Jonathan

Where is the love?

David

You know, as a Christian, I find this discussion a bit wearying. It's a valid point to remind Christians that it's a good thing to do good things. But it's also a valid point to remember that being a Christian is more than just doing good things. You're arguing about which is *more* important, when you should be focusing your energy on doing both.

And as someone who is a big Excel user, I'm mortified by shabby quality of the "calculator". From a technical standpoint, our results page has a math error in Cell E14.

From a message standpoint, regardless of the information put in, the message is the same. Effectively, all it does is add a column of numbers, then put forward your view regardless of what the numbers say.

To summarize: there's no meaning to be learned here that wouldn't be better presented in a reasoned discussion form.



Bill Cwik

Excellent job of bringing back into the spotlight the law which shines on our deceitfully wicked hearts and DRIVES us to the feet of the savior!
Amen, and again I say, AMEN!

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