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Akira kurasawa

Once again Chris you post a very intelligent video about keeping Christ the center of worship ( a very important item ) and twist it to bash the people that you perceive as heretics ( the seeker-sensitive movement, the purpose-driven movement, Rick warren, etc. ).

Whatever the denomination or group if they leave Christ out of worship or out of the pastor's message then they are not doing what they are supposed to be doing in worship. However, I have been to some pretty Christ-less traditional Lutheran worships. Christ-less worship can be found everywhere.

Presentation is not the problem. Topical preaching is not the problem. Losing focus on Christ is the problem.

Great video, Chris. Your introductory remarks leave much to be desired.


Akira, as usual, you are right on target.

Chris Rosebrough

Akira & Catransplant,

I recommend listening to my radio program. Week in and week out I review purpose-driven sermon after purpose-driven sermon from a multitude of purpose-driven churches.

Listen to the last month's worth of episodes and THEN see if you can honestly claim that I am twisting things to bash purpose-driven churches or if they deserve the criticisms that I am leveling.

You can listen here http://www.fightingforthefaith.com/

mike woolery

Chris - Great clip! True, funny and sad at the same time.

I am confused as to how it is being twisted...I believe that Joel Osteen et al. make this point every time they open their mouths and "preach" about Christ-less self help sillyness.

It is true that you can have a "traditional" style of worship with a silly sermon...but why is it so much more prevalent in the non-traditional style of worship? I believe that when your worship is about feeding the flock instead of entertaining them, there is less temptation to go off ito the motivational self help relm.


man, I'm so glad for the the pastors that roll with Desiring God. I heard Matt Chandler at the Catalyst conference last fall (i was strategically coaxed into going). I never heard of him before that, but even then i could tell pretty clearly that he was a different breed of pastor than the rest of the catalyst lineup (craig groeschel, steven furtick, andy crouch, seth godin(?), tho i do like andy stanley) and his first words upon taking the stage were how he was thankful to be there, being that it wasn't part of the usual circles he runs in. I really respect him for not being a theological sniper, even though i myself walked out on a couple of the other messages heard there. Matt didn't get up on stage and poke holes in the other speakers he shared the stage with, but rather brought biblical truth that stood on its own merit, preaching on 1 Timothy 3:16

the Desiring God crowd of pastors seem to have the common thread where they are mindful of and have a burden for the lost and for culture, but are vehemently staunch on biblical doctrine. They're not the retreatists that display a clear deficiency in Christ-like love, yet they faithfully aimed at Christ being exalted and proclaimed more than they are numbers or "changed lives". I'd put Mark Driscoll in this category also. He takes a lot of flak on what would be peripherals, but his hermeneutic (much more important) is pretty solid in all areas.
we need more pastors like this who are not afraid to be in the world, yet refuse to be of it or make nice-nice with it. Who aren't afraid to go to purpose driven gatherings (gasp) like Catalyst in order to be subversive with the Gospel and sound doctrine and to shine as lights in the world.

Good video Chris!

Akira Kurosawa

Chris, I will be honest with you. I have only listened to the Pirate Christian radio broadcasts that are on your site. Also, in all honesty, I have disagreed with your assessments of many of the pastors that you have spoken about. Not all, but many.

I think that you paint with a very broad brush and see things through a decidedly Lutheran lens. I think broad brushes are always a bad idea, they tend to paint people who don't deserve the white washing. I also think that most denominations use a very specific vocabulary that can cause people to talk past each other if they aren't using the same words in the same way.

But we have been over this before and we just don't agree. No problem, we can continue to agree to disagree. Have a great weekend.

Tara McClenahan

Awesome! Gets right to the heart of the issue!


Chris, as long as you don't lump Rick Warren in with people who take what he has spoken about (finding meaning in life through Jesus Christ)in a whole different direction than he intended, I have no problem with what you are saying.

As long as you are willing to admit that Rick Warren has no more control over how pastors preach and what they preach than you do over what your pastor preaches from the pulpit every week.

Have you seen what's happening at Saddleback lately? You might be pleasantly surprised. Communion is served at both Sunday evening services and an extended time of prayer with pastors is also offered. These are healing services.

Saddleback is in the middle of a series called Connecting With God, focusing on the importance of understanding the Lord's Prayer.

And the gospel is preached, as always, every week.

Mike Baker


...except that Rick Warren has taken credit for training alot of these pastors who are going out into the weeds and he is responsible for the methods and materials that these guys are applying to promote their foolishness.

Don't you think he carries at least a little responsibility there? Especially if he does not come out and reject their direction as clearly and publicly as one would expect from someone who is having their vision perverted as you claim? I wish that he would rebuke the people who abuse his work half as much as he takes credit for all the pastoral training he has been doing over the years.

And you made a bold statement that is just not supported by the public record: "the gospel is preached, as always, every week." I watched the Saddleback Christmas special on Fox News Channel. "Sometimes God Changes Your Plans"? That's the message to be broadcast to tens of thousands? I honestly believe that he means well, but where was the gospel in that sermon? The fact is that the gospel is not always preached as it should and we can do better than that.

As to the video:

I think that Pr. Chandler is in the right ball park, but he is still looking at things through the false lense of W.I.F.M. theology. His alternative to the "Irreverant, Silly Myth" (as it was presented) was just a redux of the changed-life formal principle in a more Christ-centered package (which is not really saying much when you compare it to the alternative that he is speaking against). I wish he had gone further from what he was rejecting than he did.

When you probe deeper, it was still an example that preaches the empowerment of the Christian and not Christ curcified. His alterantive was still only practical and purely 3rd use of the law. In my opinion it is still a long way off from right preaching, but a welcome step in the right direction. At least we're talking about Jesus now. That's a great place to start.

...did you catch the confusion of Law and Gospel at the end?

"The Gospel is ever present; the Doctrine is ever present. It reveals the former errors." It is no the role of the Gospel to reveal errors. That is the function of the Law. Using a presentation of the Gospel to identify and expose error (as he did in his example) actually confounds the message of Christ rather than clearly prsenting it. Well... we'll work on that. =P



Sorry but you are mistaken. The Good News of salvation through Jesus was preached. FOX edited the program as they saw fit....another thing Warren has no control over, just as he has no control over pastors who take his work and make a mockery of it. There was a lot of content that people who were not at the service at Christmas missed, but to blame Rick Warren is just not logical.

Mike Baker

...uh (accepting your point for the sake of arguement) if you have no creative control over the presentation of your preaching then why cast pearls before swine? Why put yourself in a situation where your message is so consistantly misrepresented? Those are perfectly logical and reasonable questions to ask when he goes back to the people who abuse his content and welcomes back teachers who corrupt his message. The frequency with which he "falls victim" to misrepresentation by the media and own his students (some of whom are not even Christian when he trains them!) is astounding. Adopting your explination leads to the inevitible question: "Is he gullible, indifferent, inept, or complicit?" None of those are good choices, but I do not see any other explination if it is as you say.

But the fact is that it is not as you say. I grew up in the Southern Baptist Convention so I do not evaluate Pr. Warren from an external viewpoint. I grew up learning his doctrines and adopting his practices. My congregation (like so many others) blindly gobbled it all up. I had no idea how legalistic it all was and thought that I was following Scripture. I was so blinded by my error that I thought that what I was hearing was the Gospel. It was not... just a retread of moralism from the dark ages of the church.

His own teaching materials provide documented evidence of this: He does not point people to Christ crucified for sin (Gospel), but consistantly directs people to take comfort in their own purpose and works (Law).

But I was so in the tank for this man and his erronious teachings that I refused to see this simple fact. Why? I had way too much to lose! I would not give up the chance to finally get credit for pleasing God with my works.


Mike, you seem to be bound and determined to insult Rick Warrne's intelligence and sit in judgment of his heart and motives, so nothing I am going to say is going to deter you. I pray for you, my brother. You are so far off track.

I don't know how else to say this except you are plain, dead, flat out wrong. I am at Saddleback every week and Christ crucified IS PREACHED....by Rick Warren and any other pastor who takes the pulpit. The work that saves was finished on the cross and Rick Warren says that week after week.

You are either parroting what some of the other ODM bloggers who seem to live to tear down Warren are saying or you are seriously misinterpreting what you have heard/read.


Thank you for posting this video. It was spot on. Earlier this evening I visited the website of my sisters PDC and the foolishness is so obvious I can't understand why it isn't obvious to everyone.
If I showed the clip you posted to my sister she would have the same knee-jerk reaction as the other commenters here. That makes me intensely sad.

I wanted to let you know that I appreciated the message.

Dwayne Lacy

Many of you do not know what's going on at Lakewood Church either. You should come on Wednesdays. The Bible is being preached. THey also have several Bible study groups within the church and people are being touched and lives are being changed. I do understand the criticism of Pastor Osteen, but I want you to know that there are about winning souls and changing lives.

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