If I was Dying & I Walked Into Your Church

Poignant.

Comments

[Paul]

I'm trying to figure out what someone wears or how someone chooses to style their hair has to do with the message of Christ?

I think it would be fairly easy to take a 10 second clip of anybody's sermons through the years and make them look bad.

[catransplant48]

This is a spliced sham of a video, as I already commented on A Little Leaven.

Consider these lyrics to the song Broken and Beautiful by Mark Schultz the next time you want to take shots at pastors and church leaders who are doing things you consider "gimmicky" to get the lost IN THE DOOR in order that they may hear the gospel.

There's a businessman
There's a widowed wife
There's a smiling face with
A shattered life
There's a teenage girl with a choice to make
It's crowded here in church today

And the preacher says as the sermon ends
Please close your eyes and bow your heads
Is there anyone in need of prayer
Jesus wants to meet you here
'cause we all fall short
We all have sinned
But when you let
God's Grace break in...

[Chorus]
It's beautiful
Beautiful
Come as you are
Surrender your heart
Broken and beautiful

Well he'd never been to church before
But he came today as a last resort
His world was crashing in
And he was suffocating in his sin

But tears ran down
As hope rushed in
He closed his eyes
Raised his hands
Worshiping the God who can
Bring him back to life again

[Chorus]

Cause there's nothing more beautiful to God
Than when his sons and daughters come
Broken

Alleluia
Alleluia
Come as you are
Alleluia
Alleluia
Come as you are

[Chorus]

Alleluia
Alleluia
Come as you are
(Come as you are)
Surrender your heart
Broken and beautiful

Alleluia
Alleluia
Come as you are
(Come as you are)
Surrender your heart
Broken and beautiful

[Ray]

catransplant,

"...pastors and church leaders who are doing things you consider "gimmicky" to get the lost IN THE DOOR in order that they may hear the gospel."

This assumes two things (at least):
1) gimmicks are good and/or acceptable ways to get the lost "in the door."
2) that the lost do, in fact, hear the gospel once they are "in the door."

To #1, I would ask, why is a proper application of Law and Gospel enough? If the lost have been convicted of their sins and shown the wrath due to them for them, why should we give them anything other than the Gospel, which is the only hope for the forgiveness of their sins and salvation?

To #2, I would first say, this largely, if not wholly, determines the "value" and/or "rightness" of the "gimmicks" used. If no Gospel is preached (and, I would add, if does not follow on the Law preached to convict of sins), then the "gimmicks" are of secondary concern and are a second error, since the first and largest error is that the lost who do get "in the door" are not being given what they need once they are there.

On the other hand, if Law and Gospel ARE being properly preached, then we return to the question address to #1: WHY isn't that enough? Why is Paul's way ("I chose to know nothing among you except Christ and Him crucified...") no longer enough? Paul made tents at times during his ministry, but he didn't go around offering free tents to get the lost "in the door". Jesus HIMSELF fed the hungry, but when they came after Him He said, "You Truly, truly, I say to you, you are seeking me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate your fill of the loaves" (See the feeding of the 5000 in John 6.) Jesus then DOES give them the Gospel - "I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh... Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood will have eternal life." What's the result? The Jews were shocked and appalled and many of His own DISCIPLES turned and no longer followed Him. Because the Gospel "is the stench of death to those who are perishing." Adding freebies and goodies doesn't make it any more palatable. Only watering it down does that, but then it isn't the Gospel anymore.

-Ray

[Sherri]

I am not sure if your using this as an excuse or your actually looking for the truth. Instead of heading out to the public and different churches, why not seek the Lord and get into the bible, pray read..seek..

Then begin your search for a church. Its obvious that one of your other misfortunes is your somewhat oblivious to Christ in itself. I am telling you..if you search him with all your heart, he will guide you and you will find where it is you need to be. You dont know if Christ will heal your tumor, this inquires of you faith. However, maybe it is that God is using the tumor to get your attention, to get you to find the Keys to Jesus, to enable to you to do more than at this point in time allows for you to see. Believe me, you dont want to leave this earth without knowing him personally, there is no turning back when your gone, tumor or not, there is no turning back. I too was on my death bed and for the moment live in time and each day in time with thankfulness that I still exist. Maybe it is the Lord has began his ministry in you already and you are as of yet not aware, just by making this video the bible is crying out many scriptures that you must not be aware of, this is why we are to seek the truth, by his means first, in prayer and meditation, then look for the church to be involved in.

The bible is clear on false prophets, if your walk is sincere and your truly seeking him, and did meet up with the so said video's above, then he will change the direction of your path. Dont have to believe me, seek Christ and find him. This is the world we live in, full of sin and deception, but..there is a way to find him. One must truly seek him. Only someone who is not seeking the Lord with all and I mean all his heart would fall foe to such falshood with spirituality as you taped above.

God Bless and the Lord be with you
Sherri
http://www.jedidiahsarts.com clk on the Keys to Jesus, and now you too will have peace and a hope that only Christ can provide.

[Ray]

oops! I meant:

"To #1, I would ask, why ISN'T a proper application of Law and Gospel enough?"

Darned contractions!

-Ray

[Akira Kurosawa]

Ray, I would say that the correct application of law and gospel is always needed.

However, I believe that all people have a Christ shaped hole in their heart or soul they makes them want to fill it with something. Sometimes it is drugs, sex, money, or blogging (lol). The gimmicks and such are what get the person in the door. They don't give faith, but they may get someone to be exposed to the Word and then the Spirit can actually work on them. Or the gimmicks may get them into an environment where they can realize that the hole that they have been trying to fill is only filled by Christ.

So Law and Gospel is always needed and gimmicks, if done correctly, can be useful.

-Blessings

[Paul]

I'm still waiting for an answer.

What does someone wear or how does someone wear their hair has to do with the gospel?

[pastorharold]

Akira,
"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."

"I will not leave you comfortless: I will come unto you"

God will save all of His children, and not one of them will be lost. You will not add one name to the Lambs Book of Life. You can only find those whos names are already written there. They will come to faith by preaching the truth and nothing else. Our job is not tot entice, trick, twist arms, convince or drag anyone to Christ. We are to give the Truth and let the Holy Spirit do the rest.

[Walker]

Paul,

No, nowhere in the Bible are there any direct directions as to hairstyle. However we should consider Paul's directions to Timothy

1Ti 3:2 An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, prudent, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,

If a Pastor is dressing in a way that does not present himself as above reproach, respectable, and able to teach, people will not view him as such.

However, the real point in the Furdick section of the video was not "dumb pastors with silly hair" but noting the fact that people in his church are asking more questions about fashion than theology and he doesn't see this as a problem but is just going along with it. I think Ray gave a great response above showing that this was not Jesus' way.

Oh, and to respond to your very first points, I didn't make this video, but I've seen or heard many of the sermons and other programs where the clips came from. These are not outtakes where the pastor misspoke or was just having an off day, these are their key points, many of them are repeat often. (yes, I've hear Furdick talk about his fashion prowess from the pulpit on multiple occastions)

[catransplant48]

Walker,

You wrote: "If a Pastor is dressing in a way that does not present himself as above reproach, respectable, and able to teach, people will not view him as such."

That's probably the most illogical statement that's been posted on this thread. You took the biblical statement you refered to and twisted it so far out of context I don't even know where to begin.

Have you ever been to a third world country where people are sitting in 100 degrees with no air conditioning, listening to their pastor preach? Do you think they care how he's dressed? Every moment of their lives is a struggle just to survive. They are listening to what he says.

And I can speak for Warren and Osteen, having attended their churches many times. Where they are concerned, at least, in regards to this video, you are wrong on your last point.

[Bill]

Holy cats! This is my first time visiting this website, and am I ever affirmed in what I believe is wrong with the LC-MS -- a church that continues to distinguish itself by tearing others down. Will you ever stop talking (or is it screaming?) at each other long enough to actually do something to bail out your sinking ship? Gads... Ick... Oh, I know, it's all "out of Christian love and concern" that you occupy day and night "correcting" each other. Wake up! While you're eating your own, your pews are emptying!

[Akira Kurosawa]

But PastorHarold, if no one is there to listen to "the truth"...

I am not sure if you are accomplishing anything.

If you preach in a language that no one understands...

I am not sure if you are accomplishing anything.

And correct me if I am wrong, but it sounds like you are saying God saves who he will, so why evangelize. Don't get me wrong, I don't think that is what you are saying, but it sure sounds like it.

-Blessings

[Brad M]

Preach the gospel to me. Don't be trendy, the world does it better, don't be quirky, it insults my intelligence, just tell me the truth in the bible. Great post - Thanks

[Walker]

Cat,

As to your first response, I actually would like you to begin. How is saying that a Pastor should look respectable taking that passage out of context? Your response doesn't even attempt to put it in context. I was writing about pastors here in America, because I was responding to a video about pastors here in America.

Of course I wouldn't expect pastors in 3rd world countries to look like pastors here. However would it be wise for a pastor to speak to a community that has been subject to multiple military coups of the love and grace of Jesus while wearing military fatigues? Yes, this is an extreme made up example but the point is that the way we present ourselves is important.

Now then, we can argue all day as to what is or is not respectable dress. In case you were wondering, I don't go to a church were everyone is in a tie or a dress. The purpose of my post was to respond to Paul who thought there was no reason to even consider hairstyle, which falls in the category of the way we present ourselves.

As to my second point, did you mean where I was talking directly about Furdick caring more about fashion than theology? If so then yes, I have not seen Warren and Osteen talk as much about fashion and I was responding directly to the Furdick clip only in that point.

If you mean the final point, where I said these clips were not outtakes but representative of their usual teaching, are you honestly saying that Warren talking about God having a wonderful plan and purpose for your life and Osteen talking about victories is not representative of their teaching? Didn't they both write books with those exact themes?

[Charlotte Naven]

Jesus suffered and died for my sins on the cross that I might have eternal life with God forever. If I'm going to die of a brain tumour tomorrow this is all I really need to hear for comfort and hope. Give me the Gospel any day. I don't need the seeker friendly, purpose driven,feel good messages that short circuit, divert and obscure the Gospel message.

[Paul]

Walker,
Who gets to decide what "respectable" means? There are a lot of people that go to Furticks church so they must deem his fashion respectable.
Face it, at the very least, that portion of the video was very judgemental.
It seems to me the Bible has way more definitive things to say about being judgemental than it does about fashion.

[Walker]

Paul,

Ok, the main point of me chiming in here was to point out that the main problem is Furdick's preference to talk about fashion over the Bible. In doing so I also pointed out that the Bible does have something to say about how we present ourselves, and lets face it, A lot of these guys, Furdick included, present themselves as entertainers. I find it funny that both you and Cat are choosing to hammer on the fashion part and won't touch my main point of talking about not seeing a church's lack of interest in learning the Bible as a problem that is often being celebrated and mocked rather than honestly addressed.

As I told Cat, we can argue about what exactly respectable clothing entails, and this does change from culture to culture. However I do have to say something about the reasoning you are using.

you said:
"Who gets to decide what "respectable" means? There are a lot of people that go to Furticks church so they must deem his fashion respectable."

This is purpose driven reasoning at its worst. By that line of thought we should all be mormons, they're growing much faster than any seeker sensitive church. If you want to argue, tell me what is true, not what is popular.

[Christian]

I am Christian, the guy in the video. Thanks for the comments and posting the video. Let me see if I can answer some things that were put up here:

catransplant48:

"This is a spliced sham of a video, as I already commented on A Little Leaven. Consider these lyrics to the song Broken and Beautiful by Mark Schultz the next time you want to take shots at pastors and church leaders who are doing things you consider "gimmicky" to get the lost IN THE DOOR in order that they may hear the gospel."

That wasn't the point of my video. My point is this--imagine that you're someone like me, who has just found out that you have a brain tumor. You go into one of these churches looking for answers and help, and see this kind of stuff going on. What would you think about Jesus Christ? What would you think about what the pastor was saying? What would you think about the way they would treat you?

Akira:

"However, I believe that all people have a Christ shaped hole in their heart or soul they makes them want to fill it with something."

Could you please let me know what Bible verse you would use to illustrate this idea?

Paul:

"What does someone wear or how does someone wear their hair has to do with the gospel?"

If I was an unsaved person and walked into Furtick's church, where he was boasting how more people are asking him more about his fashion sense and hairstyle than they are about religious matters, would I trust that man for answers about faith, or would it seem like he's more into the clothes he wears and the gel in his hair? Or, would I go down the road to someone who looks like, at least on the surface, that he would have answers for me?

--
Christian

[catransplant48]

They chose to target my pastor on this video and my church does not have a "lack of interest in the Bible" as you put it. You can't just recklessly throw my pastor and my congregation into your POV and not expect a response when what is represented is false.

[pastorharold]

Akira,
This is the issue, God never said draw a crowd! He never said "If they could just hear one time..." or "Do what ever it takes to fit in and win their friendship"

Christ did say "He that hath an ear.." and "all that the Father hath given me are mine"

God told Jeremiah "Before I formed thee in thy mothers belly, I knew thee" and "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy"

Yes God does do the work of saving a soul. I evangelize out of obedience to my Lord, and not because "He just couldn't make it without me".

Some want to serve God, but only as advisors.

[catransplant48]

Christian,

Plain and simple: what was on this edited video did not accurately portray the entire sermon, in which I'm sure the gospel was preached (at least I'm sure it was by my pastor).You're being unfair to take a two second nano-clip of an entire sermon and pass the kind of judgment you are attempting to. That's my point.

[Akira Kurosawa]

Pastorharold,

He didn't say draw a crowd, but everywhere Jesus went , He drew one. And He DID do what was necessary to win their friendship. He hung out with the sinners and the unclean and tailored His preaching style to fit whoever was listening. His disciples did the same.

So while He didn't command it, I think I will try to follow His example just the same. Jesus seems to be a good person to follow.

So, you evangelize out of obedience, not because you are actually taking God's word to people???
Wow, how absolutely Calvinist of you, and that probably means we are not going to agree on why we evangelize and its importance.

Okay, Christian, I'll show you the verse where "people have a Christ shaped hole in their heart or soul" is located if you find me the verse that uses the word "trinity" or the verse that condones or prohibits infant baptism explicitly, etc.

You see, sometimes the Bible doesn't explicitly tell us something, but we infer it from the way things are described or the way that they are written or the patterns that the writer uses in the text.

Or sometimes, rather than slinging verses around like ammunition, we look at the whole picture and get a greater understanding of what God was trying to tell us.

Until you or Pastorharold are ready to look at the big picture, and stop confining yourselves to a few proof-text verses, you aren't going to understand what I am saying. And to understand that, you may be required to completely rethink the way you view the Bible.

So, once again, I think that I am done here.

-Blessings

[Brian of the Hill People]

Christ drew crowds. Also, after the crowds heard certain hard sayingd, they left. He even once asked the 12 if they too would leave.

So, let's not forget the other half of the story just to pad the gimmick-friendly side of the debate.

Also, what evidence is there that Jesus Christ tailored His preaching style to whoever was listening? Seriously, scripture, please. That's just a bland comment with no support. Jesus Christ often spoke in parables, the worst way to make things easy to understand, and on purpse, He, Himself, declared that He spoke in parables so that people would NOT understand, and those who did, we're made able to by God in grace.

The Bible explicitly tells us Christ was purposely oblique in parables with none other than Himself stating so. How is that tailoring His preaching style to the listeners in the way you mean it (which would be, to make it more understandable in their own contexts, to be more approachable and graspable)?

No, I think I'll stick to proof-texting. God says our hearts our desperately wicked and who can know them? God says lean NOT to our OWN understanding. Pretty much leaves me with only one rule for authoratative truth, God's Word. So, yeah, I'm stuck with that if I want to be dogmatic on anything.

As an aside, I can hardly believe that several comments back, catransplant charged somebody with taking a verse out of context. She just glossed over it when I showed her how she did so at one of the A Little Leaven threads. You can't take verses out of context yourself, get called on it, and ignore it, then charge others to hold a standard you won't, expect to hold a lot of credability, cat. If you're finally jumping on the biblical nitpickiness train, glad you're aboard. But y'kmow, I somehow doubt that's what's really going on.

As a second aside, I'd ask Akira what the biblical pattern is for drawing as large a crowd as possible, specifically, acceptable means and where a christian would draw the line. And, am I to understand you think God's eternal Word, settled forever in the Heavens, is fluid and amorphous? Please clarify. In what way should we rethink the Bible?

As an exercise in imagination, do you suppose Jesus Christ, the Son of God, would hang out with you while listening to Highway to Hell and be absolutely unperturbed by it? Remember, this is the same Godman that made a whip of cords and drove the moneychangers out of the Temple for defiling His Father's house.

[Christian]

catransplant48:

"Plain and simple: what was on this edited video did not accurately portray the entire sermon, in which I'm sure the gospel was preached (at least I'm sure it was by my pastor).You're being unfair to take a two second nano-clip of an entire sermon and pass the kind of judgment you are attempting to. That's my point."

For reference, who was your pastor?

Akira:

"Okay, Christian, I'll show you the verse where "people have a Christ shaped hole in their heart or soul" is located if you find me the verse that uses the word "trinity" or the verse that condones or prohibits infant baptism explicitly, etc."

You're right. Those words and things in the Bible cannot be found directly. But, I can find verses like 1 John 5:7-8 which point to ideas like the Trinity pretty well. Is there any area or similar range of Scripture you would recommend where I could find the theme of the, "God-shaped hole?"

--
Christian

[pastorharold]

Akira,

You read my post word for word, and I read your post word for word. So why not read the Bible word for word? You seem to better at "reading beteen the lines". Like after my first post, your comment is "it sounds like your saying".

If you want to look at the bigger picture then look: in the last days the world will get worse, churches will unite and put doctrine aside, there will be a big push for world peace, false teachers will be everywhere, people will not listen to Gods Word, they will find teachers they like, true Christians will be hated and called names (Bible thumper, Calvinist and Pharisee), and people will think that they are doing God a favor by persecuting us.

That is a Biblical big picture. "Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know summer is near"

[catransplant48]

Christian, my pastor is Rick Warren.

[catransplant48]

When Jesus walked the earth He spoke in parables using metaphors and word pictures that he was fully aware the people of his time and geographic area would understand. Of course, just as is the case today, some would turn away and not bother to listen....but many did not and were saved.

Many of the illustrations and stories/parables Jesus used were moving, vivid, culturally relevant and memorable. Some of the sayings and stories we read with such solemnity the crowds actually laughed at. Jesus knew people remember funny stories as well as moving ones.

I believe if He were preaching today Jesus would use the cultural/social/networking tools we use everyday. If Jesus were preaching today he'd probably have a page on Facebook and be Twittering via His Blackberry.

I'm sure some of you just fainted in horror when you read that, but you know it's the truth.

[Ray]

catransplant,

you said:
"When Jesus walked the earth He spoke in parables using metaphors and word pictures that he was fully aware the people of his time and geographic area would understand."

Are you kidding me?! Jesus spoke in parables for the exact OPPOSITE reason! See what Jesus said to His disciples when the asked Him, "Why do you speak to them in parables?":

"And he answered them, 'To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. For to the one who has, more will be given, and he will have an abundance, but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. Indeed, in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says:
'"You will indeed hear but never understand,
and you will indeed see but never perceive.
For this people’s heart has grown dull,
and with their ears they can barely hear,
and their eyes they have closed,
lest they should see with their eyes
and hear with their ears
and understand with their heart
and turn, and I would heal them."'
But blessed are your eyes, for they see, and your ears, for they hear. For truly, I say to you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.'" (Matthew 13:11-16)

The understanding that the disciples had came from Christ Himself, who was constantly having to explain not only His parables to them (this text is preceded by the parable of the sower and the seed and preceeds Jesus' explanation of that parable to the disciples.) but all the things He kept saying about having to go to Jerusalem and die for the sins of the world.

They understood the parables? They couldn't even understand the simple things:

"After saying these things, he said to them, ,Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but I go to awaken him.' The disciples said to him, 'Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover.' Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that he meant taking rest in sleep. Then Jesus told them plainly, 'Lazarus has died, and for your sake I am glad that I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him.' So Thomas, called the Twin, said to his fellow disciples, 'Let us also go, that we may die with him.'" (John 11:11-16)

The disciples had trouble understanding the things Jesus said at the time unless it was in the absolute plainest of terms. Even then they still mistook what His purpose was (as Thomas clearly shows). It was until after Jesus' resurrection and Pentecost that their eyes, ears, and minds were fully opened to understand the things He had shown them and said to them.

-Ray

[Christian]

catransplant48:

Thank you for identifying your pastor. Now, jumping back to a previous comment of yours:

"Plain and simple: what was on this edited video did not accurately portray the entire sermon, in which I'm sure the gospel was preached (at least I'm sure it was by my pastor)."

I listened to that sermon several times because it was one of the few occasions when Warren was kicking off his, "40 Days of Purpose," program. I thought that it would be wise to listen to the man who wrote the book share the message that brought him such notoriety firsthand in the pulpit.

You know what? The full Gospel was not preached in that sermon. He was more focused on, "purpose," than he was on Christ. His salvation message was totally devoid of repentance or a rational reason to repent. And that video clip came from the end of his sermon when he was wrapping things up, which did make it a pretty accurate representative sample from his sermon.

Could you imagine being an unsaved person in my situation and hearing a sermon like that? "God has a purpose for your life. He wants the rest of your life to be the best of your life," says Warren. My response would be, "Really? God's purpose was to give me a brain tumor? That's a messed-up purpose." Or, the promise of, "the rest of my life being the best of my life," would fall pretty flat pretty fast if the tumor starts to grow, spread, or become malignant.

Does this make sense from where I am coming?

--
Christian

[catransplant48]

Ray, if your reasoning makes any sense, then how do you explain the thousands that followed Him while he was alive? Sure, some people would turn away and not care to understand what He was saying, but many did not only comprehend, they BELIEVED and were saved.

You give the impression Jesus deliberatly spoke in riddles so that no one would understand His message of salvation. Nothing could be further from the truth.

[catransplant48]

Ray, to continue.....you could draw a parallel with any church service today. Many come in, hear the Word, and are thinking about where they will be going for lunch, etc. All their focus is on the outside world. The message the pastor preached (if any of it ever sank in to begin with) has left them before they even turn out of the driveway.

However, to some people in the church pews, God's message preached through a man in the pulpit, settles in their hearts. They are convicted to learn more. Those are the ones who go home, take out their Bibles and do a deeper study on the message that was preached on Sunday.

That's the modern equivalent of what Jesus was saying to his Disciples.

[Ray]

catransplant,

you said:
"You give the impression Jesus deliberatly spoke in riddles so that no one would understand His message of salvation."

Yes! Exactly! No could understand it except those to whom understanding was given by Christ! Look at the passage! What does Jesus say to the disciples question; "WHY do you speak to them in parable?"

Jesus: "..to them it has not been given [to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven]. For to the one who has, more will be given, and he will have an abundance, but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand."

But what does He say to the disciples? "'To you it has been given..." Not because they were of great or even average understanding, but because it was REVEALED to them. The parables showed the deafness and blindness of the people due to the hardness of their hearts! THEY COULDN'T UNDERSTAND HIM! Why would the disciples ask him that question in the first place? "Why do you speak in parables?" Why don't you speak plainly? Later on the disciples say almost exactly this:

"His disciples said, "Ah, now you are speaking plainly and not using figurative speech! Now we know that you know all things and do not need anyone to question you; this is why we believe that you came from God." (John 16:29,30)

And what's Jesus' response? "Jesus answered them, "Do you now believe?" (vs 31).

Even the disciples were confused by Jesus' parables and figurative speech. Or are you suggesting that Jesus chose the 12 dumbest guys in all of Israel at the time? That these crowds that followed understood but the guys that were with him all the time, every day were just 12 eggs short of a dozen?

As for this:
"...then how do you explain the thousands that followed Him while he was alive?"

a) That depends on what you mean by followed Him - believed or just wandered after Him for a little bit?

The reasons for this are myriad and sundry. How about these:
-Curiousity
-Boredom
-Hey, a lot of people, what's up?
-It was a way to get out of work for a little while
-Here was another potential messiah and they wanted to check him out, maybe THIS one would overthrow the Romans
-Here's one from scripture: he fed them (John 6:26 - Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, you are seeking me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate your fill of the loaves. - Translation: sweet, free food. Note, though, that after Jesus talks about giving them His body and blood to eat and live forever, many, even many of His disciples, turned away.)
-They were spies for the Pharisees, etc.
-They were the Pharisees, etc. and were trying to find a way to condemn Him
-They were Romans and were making sure the precious pax romana wasn't disturbed
-They really did believe

Yes, some followed Him because they did believe (however, I'd like some biblical support that BEFORE His crucifiction that it was THOUSANDS who followed AND believed). Also, take a look at the gospels. How many times do you see a parable given and many believed? How many times do you see a parable given and ANY believed? I can't think of any.

-Ray

[Brian of the Hill People]

Ray:

Exactly. Nothing like quoting the exact scripture and still having others deny what it plainly says.

Remember the crowds that walked away from Jesus in John 6 because He spoke hard things?

They weren't following Him to be saved from God's wrath. They wanted a new king and a reestablished nation that would overthrow Roman rule and Herod.

I, like you, don't recall the verse that stated thousands kept following Him. I do remember 120 in the upper room, right?

In fact, the first time I remember hearing of thousands of true believers was at Pentecost when 3,000 were saved.

Anyway, interesting to note that not only didn't the crowds understand our Lord's parables, His own disciples needed Him to interpret them.

Good job on plainly, biblically, defending the truth with Christ's Own words. But there are many who don't care what Jesus said. They like their own ideas more. And only the Holy Spirit can change that.

[catransplant48]

Brian and Ray - You guys really want to nitpick just about everything to death. Did you read what I wrote?

"THE THOUSANDS THAT FOLLOWED HIM while he was alive? Sure, some people would turn away and not care to understand what He was saying, but many did not only comprehend, they BELIEVED and were saved."

You want to quote Scripture? Ok. John 6:1-14. Remember? When Jesus fed THE 5000. 5000 what? PEOPLE.

I said thousands of people FOLLOWED Jesus during His ministry on earth. I did not say they all believed; understood, or stood by Him or spoke up for Him when He became a "problem" to the govt. officials. BIG difference.

[catransplant48]

Christian,

I don't know why you have a brain tumor. I do know that there are many things we will never understand, whether we are saved or unsaved. I know that in my church I have seen many people diagnosed with diseases and tumors who have gone on to Heaven. On the other hand I have also seen people healed here on earth of the same things and I can only attribute those healings to a miracle from God. It's not to say prayer is futile. It is to say God has promised healing. Sometimes that healing happens here on earth and sometimes it's in the Heavenly realm.

Now as for my pastor and his message, at the end of every message I have ever heard him give, he takes time and asks for people to pray for their salvation through the free gift of grace offered freely to them by Christ's sacrifice for their sins. That's his passion - that people come to know Jesus Christ and are saved. The main thing I think he wants people to know is they don't have to simply exist and die separated from God for eternity. Through a life with Christ they can fully, abundantly live and serve. But believe me, it is not his "agenda" or a marketing scam as so many cruelly accuse him of. He genuinely loves Jesus and wants to see people find salvation.

Have you read The Purpose Driven Life, just out of curiosity? It's about the abundant life that one can have when they choose to accept Jesus as their Savior, contrary to what people would like you to believe. It's not meant to be the Bible and never was. That's where many people who criticize it err.

[Ray]

catransplant,

"...thousands of people FOLLOWED Jesus during His ministry on earth. I did not say they all believed; understood, or stood by Him or spoke up for Him when He became a "problem" to the govt. officials. BIG difference."

I agree, there is a BIG difference, which was what I was pointing out at the end of my last post. Why? Because words mean things and the way they are written mean things, and the way you wrote:

"...how do you explain the thousands that followed Him while he was alive? Sure, some people would turn away and not care to understand what He was saying, but many did not only comprehend, they BELIEVED and were saved."

implies that many of those not only comprehended His parables, somehow, but that they believed because of them. Again, please show in scripture where ANY of the people comprehended His parables and were saved. Remember, this is the issue at hand.

"You want to quote Scripture? Ok. John 6:1-14. Remember? When Jesus fed THE 5000. 5000 what? PEOPLE."

Honestly, you're a bit passe with this one. Brian and I both quoted this already, and I'm pretty sure we both realize that the 5000 that were fed were people. However, I will restate two major poits relative to the discussion:
a) Jesus Himself said: "...you are seeking me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate your fill of the loaves." They didn't follow Him because they comprehended His parables. They followed Him because they got free food and enough to make them full.
b) Note what Brian and I both pointed out about the conclusion of that encounter: When Jesus gives them the truth, preaches the gospel, many of the people, including many of His disciples, leave.

Finally,

"Did you read what I wrote?"

Yes, catransplant, I did. Which is why I responded as I did, because what you wrote warranted it. Keep in mind that these are the propositions we are discussing:
a) Jesus spoke in parables IN ORDER THAT the people could understand Him.
b) Some of the people could understand the parables.
c) Some of those people who understood the parables believed.
[d) I believe the point of your original post was to relate parables to gimmicks, which has not yet been explicitly addressed. If I'm wrong about your intentions, please correct me.]

-Ray

[Christian]

catransplant48:

I know why I have a brain tumor. The world we live in is fallen, where things go not go right, and it was either in God's permissive will or His perfect will that I have it. And you know what? I'm okay with that, because I have been saved by grace through faith, and know that God works all things for my good because I love Him. But here's the catch: How many churches today would be willing to say such a thing to a person for fear of turning them away?

Alas, I digress. Onto the rest of your post, starting with the last paragraph.

I have read a good portion of, "The Purpose Driven Life," and also gone through the, "40 Days of Community," program offered by Warren. And I found that both were severely lacking when it came to theology, doctrine, and proper hermeneutics. There were numerous errors in both the PDL and, "Better Together," where verses were taken out of context, ideas were smashed in, or intermediate content between verses was completely ignored.

Relevant to your second paragraph, and as a great illustration of those problems, the Gospel presentation was woefully lacking. It never mentioned repentance at all. Instead, people were asked to, "believe and receive," through the misapplication of Romans 10:9. If there was someone who said that they came to faith through the means listed in either book, I would be very worried about the state of that person's salvation.

I cannot call into question your pastor's sincerity in what he wants to do. I don't know any pastor out there who does not want to see people come to Jesus Christ. But I can say that the clip I used was typical of his sermons, that I have found his teaching and writings poor at best and heretical at worst, and that although he may offer an invitation to, "pray for their salvation," at the end of his messages, that underscores the actual teaching and does not always contain a complete explanation of what it takes to get saved. Even Joel Osteen makes an offer to pray the, "Sinners Prayer," at the end of his messages, despite how he never explains sin or why Christ's propitiation was necessary in his messages.

I can tell that you have great zeal and passion for your pastor. I would encourage you to see things from my perspective and ask if he is really giving biblical truths.

--
Christian

[Ray]

catransplant,

"Have you read The Purpose Driven Life, just out of curiosity? It's about the abundant life that one can have when they choose to accept Jesus as their Savior, contrary to what people would like you to believe."

What do you mean by "abundant life"? Health, wealth, and happiness here on earth? Or everlasting life through the forgiveness of sins that gives hope for all of eternity?

-Ray

[catransplant48]

Ray - Everlasting life through the forgiveness of sins that gives hope for all of eternity, not any kind of guarantee of health, wealth, and happiness here on earth. Any preacher who promised me those things I would run from. Do good Christians get cancer? Yes. Do faithful Christians lose their homes to foreclosure and lose their jobs? Yes. Do Christians experience dysfunction within their families? Yes. But the joy of the Lord is our strength. If we're trusting on anyone or anything to give us security we are standing on shifting sand.

There are many misconceptions people have about the main message of the Purpose Driven Life. There are clear biblical definitions of "success", "abundance" and "prosperity". Some pastors have gone down a worldly, material path regarding these concepts but it's not the path Rick Warren has outlined in the Purpose Driven Life. It's not about money or yourself. It's all about God.

[Brian of the Hill People]

Catransplant:

You shamelessly and ceaselessly defend Warren. I'm trying to understand why.

Do you remember which names he prayed in at the inaugural prayer? Didn't see you defend Jesus then. If you're truly saved, what does your heart tell you? Is Christ Jesus worth more than the popularity of the world or is the love of the world worth more?

Why would I read a book by a man who loves popularity with the world more than Jesus? What could such a one possibly teach me?

Furthermore, speaking with those who have, for morbid curiosity's sake, read the PDL, they quickly point out those things which are contrary to scripture. Now, I personally don't find Warren more authoritative than God.

We in Christ have abundant life as those who are not in Him have no life but are dead in tresspasses and sin. This life is abundant as its Author is abounding in grace, that even should we sin, He is faithful and just to forgive us that sin, making life through grace abound unto those called unto faith in Christ Jesus.

It is not a promise of a nice house, stylish clothes, a good-paying job, a wonderful family, fun vacations, new cars, etc. Our Lord promised us that we WILL have tribulation and the apostle states that it has been granted to us to suffer for Christ. Paul's life was abundant in a rat-infested dungeon, a place of public stoning, or drifting with the timber in the sea because no matter his utter unworthiness to live, yet he found life always in Christ, Who overcame.

Please tell me your not trying to pull the balogna of health/wealth/prosperity, catransplant. I think you're wrong on a great many things but I had developed the opinion that you were wiser than to believe Jesus died in any part so that we could have cooler stuff and more fun. That is generally something only a totally new christian or false christian buys into.

[catransplant48]

Christian: You write:

"I have read a good portion of, "The Purpose Driven Life," and also gone through the, "40 Days of Community," program offered by Warren. And I found that both were severely lacking when it came to theology, doctrine, and proper hermeneutics. There were numerous errors in both the PDL and, "Better Together," where verses were taken out of context, ideas were smashed in, or intermediate content between verses was completely ignored."

You are entitled to your opinion.

"If there was someone who said that they came to faith through the means listed in either book, I would be very worried about the state of that person's salvation."

It's not our position to pass judgment on anyone's salvation. I'm betting you and I will see people in Heaven and be shocked.

"I can say that the clip I used was typical of his sermons"

Again, you are entitled to your opinion but I have heard many more than you have over the years and I completely and summarily disagree with your conclusion.

"I cannot call into question your pastor's sincerity in what he wants to do."

You are certainly correct about that. Nor could he (or would he) call into question your sincerity. But just remember, you can be sincerely wrong.

[Christian]

catransplant48:

I appreciate the dialog you and I are having about my video. Thanks for replying back to me politely. I want to address something you said:

"You are entitled to your opinion."

I made a statement above that both PDL and, "Better Together," had doctrinal, theological, and hermeneutical problems. I provided an illustration of one of these problems, of how the Gospel presentation lacked repentance, which is a necessary part of the salvation message.

This cannot be an opinion, because of the way I phrased it; that statement either has to be true or false. Saying something like, "I believe Vanilla ice cream is the best," or, "I think Rick Warren is a great preacher," is an opinion. But when I provided a claim and evidence, either my statement is true (that the Gospel presentation was incomplete because of the lack of repentance) or false (the Gospel presentation was complete even with the lack of repentance).

Which would you say is correct? Was my statement true or false? If it was false, could you please explain how repentance can be absent from a complete Gospel presentation, including biblical counter-evidence?

--
Christian

[catransplant48]

Brian....seriously....did you even bother to read the post I wrote that appears before your last one?

[Ray]

catransplant,

you have said, regarding Purpose Driven Life:

"It's about the abundant life that one can have when they choose to accept Jesus as their Savior..."

"There are many misconceptions people have about the main message of the Purpose Driven Life."

"It's all about God."

I would be interested, if you are willing and have the time, to flesh these out a bit more, as they are rather vague, or encompass an awful lot, if you would. I will admit that your response to my first question of what you meant by "adundant life" surprised me.

What would you say is the main message of PDL? How is this proclaimed? How is it "all about God"? That latter seems a quesntionable statement since the goal seems to be for ME to find MY purpose; is it? If not why? If yes, how is it still "all about God" and how does it relate to what we are told in scripture? What exactly is the "abundant life" that is proclaimed and how does this relate to scripture? What are the misconceptions that you have seen and why are they wrong? Regarding the first quote specifically, what do you mean by "choose Jesus"? Why do you believe that? How does one do that?

The more detail, the better.

-Ray

[catransplant48]

Christian,

"Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved." These words have been spoken over the last 2000 years to many atheists, pagans, people dying in third world countries, people in hospitals and on death beds......and often all the dying person can get out in response as they struggle to take their last breath is, "I believe!"

Do you believe that those people who put their trust in Christ and died within seconds of doing so - were mentally and/or or physically able to "repent" as they lay dying? Do you believe they will be in Heaven as a result of accepting Jesus Christ's once-for-all totally sufficient sacrifice for their sin even if they did not get a chance to hear about repentance? Do you believe we are saved by grace?

[Christian]

catransplant:

Let's take a look at that word, "believe." For reference, I just grabbed my copy of, "Better Together," and turned to Day 4 where Warren outlines the steps of salvation. Here's what it said:

"First, believe. Believe God loves you and made you for his purposes. Believe you're not an accident. Believe you were made to last forever. Believe God has chosen you to have a relationship with Jesus. Believe in your heart that Jesus died on the cross for you and that God raised him from the dead (Romans 10:9). Believe that no matter what you've done in the past, God wants to forgive you.

"Second, receive. Receive Jesus into your life as your Lord and Savior. Receive his forgiveness for your sins. The Bible says, '...whoever accepts and trusts the Son gets in on everything, life complete and forever!' (John 3:36a, Msg). Wherever you are reading this, I invite you to bow your head and quietly whisper this prayer: 'Jesus, I believe in you and I receive you.' His Spirit will come into your life and will give you the power to love others with a godly standard.

"If you sincerely meant that prayer, congratulations! Welcome to the family of God! You are now ready to discover and start living God's purpose for your life."

This presentation is horribly insufficient and follows, "easy believe-ism." In Warren's formula, a person could say this prayer and believe that it was the key to salvation. And, that person is never urged to explicitly turn from sin in the process.

While belief (faith) is a part of the salvation process, it must be the belief that causes someone to acknowledge Jesus as Lord and to follow his commands. Otherwise, the demons mentioned in James 2 who believe would be saved. That's why the original language says, "believe on the Lord," instead of, "believe in," as you so wrote. So what does the Lord command? Let's look at the complete picture of Scripture:

Mark 1:14-15. "Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel."

Luke 24:47. "And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem."

Acts 2:37-38. "Now when they heard [this], they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men [and] brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

By looking up the words, "repent," or, "repentance," you will see how closely tied it is to the salvation message.

So, let me ask you this: "Yes, or no. Is repentance a necessary component of salvation?"

--
Christian

[catransplant48]

Christian,

There is no other way of salvation than by Christ, and no other way of our being saved by Christ than by believing in Him.

Note the following verses of Scripture:

"By grace are ye saved, through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."

"Without faith it is impossible to please God."

"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house."

"Therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith."

"The righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe."

"He that believeth shall be saved."

"As many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name."

"As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have eternal life; for God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life, and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life."

"He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life."

"This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."

"He that believeth on me shall never thirst."

"This is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life."

"He that believeth on me, though he were dead, yet shall he live; and whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die."

"I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness."

"These are written that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing, ye might have life through his name."

"By him all that believeth are justified from all things."

"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved."

"To him gave all the prophets witness, that through his name whoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins."

"To him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

"Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth."

"If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."

"It pleased God, by the foolishness of preaching, to save them that believe."

"This is his commandment, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."

"We have known and believed the love that God hath to us."

"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ, is born of God."

"He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself; he that believeth not God, hath made him a liar, because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son."

"He that believeth not shall be damned."

Christian, I believe. And I am saved by grace.

[Brian of the Hill People]

Catransplant:

No, I did not see your post right before mine. However, since mine was sent 6 minutes after yours, I think you can see that I did not merely read and ignore your post or completely skip it and then respond all within 6 minutes. So, I'll offer an apology as far as acknowledging that you were in the midst of addressing that somewhat while I was at the same time posting. But, in your own vernacular, seriosuly, did you even look at the time of the posts?

[Christian]

catransplant48:

Thanks for all of those verses as references for how faith is related to salvation. I agree wholeheartedly with those verses. Permit me to ask my question again:

Yes, or no. Is repentance a necessary component of salvation?

--
Christian

[Akira Kurosawa]

Christian do you believe that you can truly repent?

Because if true repentance is required for salvation then we are all in deep trouble. And anything less than true repentance is insufficient for God. And if you can't do it perfectly and get it right the first time, He doesn't accept it.

So I will turn that around on you, in light of God's demand for perfection, do YOU believe repentance is necessary for salvation?