Law AND Gospel in the Carrie Prejean Controversy

The internet is currently abuzz with the latest round of critique and analysis regarding ODM blogs. This time the issue is how certain blogs are allegedly covering the Carrie Prejean story.

The controversy regarding the Prejean issue revolves around the question, What is the correct Christian response in this situation? Prejean was obviously brave for speaking up for the truth but she is obviously a sinner. Those nude photos circulating around the internet prove it.

Should we celebrate Prejean's bravery while overlooking her moral short-comings? OR should we ignore her bravery and throw her under the bus BECAUSE of her moral short-comings?

Since so many people and ODM's are discussing this issue I felt compelled to weigh in on the matter.

My Foundational Thoughts

I am a FIRM believer and proponent of strongly, soundly, and loudly exposing and debating false doctrines and practices within the church. I believe that this "politically incorrect task" serves the body of Christ well by warning it about dangerous teachers, leaders and ideas. I even believe in and practice the time honored tradition of showing the absurdity¹ of false doctrines and teachers IN ORDER to proclaim the truth and more importantly preach and proclaim the Gospel.

BUT, BUT, BUT I am NOT in favor of engaging in CHARACTER ASSASSINATION. I do not believe that Character Assassination is an appropriate tool of the Gospel.

Eph 6:12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.

Yes there is a time to throw the "heretic card" and a time to "break fellowship" with an unrepentant sinner or false teacher. But the point of throwing the "heretic card" and/or "breaking fellowship" must be motivated by a deep and prayerful desire to see the erring brother or sister come to repentance and ultimately avail themselves of the forgiveness of sins offered in Christ. Unfortunately, If a person remains unrepentant in their sin and/or false teaching, then you must continue to warn the church. Although this may seem like dog-piling or beating a dead horse, the motivation for continued exposing and warning is to prevent people from falling prey to their sin and heresies.

With that in mind, it is important to understand that exposing sin and error should NEVER be an end itself, that behavior ultimately is nothing more than the sin of gossip.

What I Believe "The Christian View" of Carrie Prejean Should Be

1. I think Prejean was brave to stand up for what she believed and exercise her constitutional right to freedom of speech in the most awkward of circumstances. Not many people display this type of bravery now-a-days.

2. The wrath and character assassination that she has been subjected to by the mainstream media and homosexual activists is chilling and frightening.

3. Despite Prejean's bravery, I do NOT consider her to be a Christian roll model. There are some obvious "disconnects" and moral "short comings" in her that I pray that as she matures in Christ that she will repent of. (JUST LIKE there are some obvious disconnects and moral short comings in MY OWN LIFE that I pray that Christ will open my eyes to so that I repent and receive His forgiveness.)

4. Despite Prejean's moral short-comings, Christians should not be engaging in the exact same type of Character Assassination tactics that the secular media and homosexual activists are engaging in.

5. The Gospel is never served by self-righteousness and moralistic finger pointing.

6. The Gospel is served only when God's law is used to expose sin and show a person their need for a savior. Once that pre-work is done, we must proclaim the good news of the free and generous forgiveness of sins offered in Jesus Christ through His vicarious death on the cross and victorious resurrection from the grave.

7. The clarion call of the Gospel is "repentance AND the forgiveness of sins in Jesus name".

8. Christians are ambassadors of the Kingdom of God which is nothing less than a Kingdom of the Forgiveness of Sins. (It is NOT a Kingdom of Self-Righteous Moralizers)

2 Cor 5:18 All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. 20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.

So what should we make of Carrie Prejean? Should we celebrate her bravery while overlooking her moral short-comings? OR should we ignore her bravery and throw her under the bus because of her moral short-comings?

I don't see this as an either or situation.

Carrie Prejean is an undeniably brave young lady who is our sister in Christ AND she is a sinner just like the rest of us. We CAN celebrate her bravery, embrace her as a sister AND call her to repentance, while offering her nothing less than the forgiveness of her sins won by Jesus Christ on the cross.

I think that a recent interview with Os Guinness on the Issues, Etc. Radio Program on the subject of Civility is worth listening too and I hope that it will be useful in the current discussion regarding the right Christian use of the gift of discernment.

Enjoy.

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1. Satire and Laughter can a powerful weapon in the apologetics arsenal. If you're going to show the absurdity of a false teaching or false teacher then make sure to have fun while exposing that absurdity. The devil doesn't like it when you laugh at and mock his carefully crafted lies. Neither the devil nor pietists have a sense of humor.

Comments

[John C]

Oh we get so caught up in meaningless squabbles. Doctrine is nothing compared to love. And love is what the world really needs to see and experience from us. They dont care about our various "doctrinal" positions, what bible translation we read or what church we belong to. Those things can never bring about true and lasting change, can never "draw" anyone to Him, only His raw, non-judging, unconditional kind of burning love can accomplish the impossible, change one's heart and draw him or her to the true Light which is Christ, and He lives within each of us if we truly belong to Him, if we want Him to.

We think we are "called" to "heretic" watching and pouncing on folks who believe differently than us, but its not true. We are called to love the outcasts, the homeless, the impoverished, the imprisoned, the sick, the ragged, the broken, the poor, the fatherless, the widows and orphans with the love of Christ. These people are really "Jesus in disguise", dont you see? He said (speaking of acts of extreme mercy, love, charity) that "when we've done it to the least of these my brothers, you have (really) done it unto me.

When we just love them, they will know it is Christ in us, God will get the glory. You dont even have to say anything to them about "God", no "preaching" required! Dont try and make'em behave, get their act together or even go to church! Just love'em, feed'em, house'em, or whatever. Love (Himself) will be the healing balm. Restore their dignity, affirm their value and worth, Christ died for them.

Warning...they stink, have poor manners, have criminal records, cuss and talk dirty, are alcoholics, drug abusers, fornicators etc...but guess what, "they" are Jesus in disguise!!! Jesus is waiting for us to come and visit Him in prison, on the street, under the bridge...will we go? Or will we simply be content to tear into the ones who dont believe like we do? Let's get truly free from the grip of doctrine and religion and then, just maybe we'll actually be free enough to love and that love will set both us and the ones we love...free.

Go see the new movie "the Soloist", there's a great lesson for us all in there to see, sometimes the secular prophet speaks louder than the "church". You start by just going, just loving by faith, letting Him do it through you. Go with no agenda, no expectations, no "tracts"...but by all means...go! Here's the secret...you will be the one most blessed, most changed from within! Blessings my fellow InChristed one's.

[Paul L.]

I think it is important to remember that we know Carrie Prejean's views on gay marriage only because she was asked about it. She admits that she was afraid of getting asked about that subject. She was not looking to take on the role of a public crusader for traditional marriage, but once she was forced to make her position known she responded with the courage of her convictions.

Other than that I think there is no reason to make her some sort of exemplar of the Christian faith. That kind of reminds me of the way many political conservatives tried to make Sarah Palin and "Joe the Plumber" (both admirable in their own ways) the living hope and embodiment of all their aspirations.

[Rick Frueh]

Good post, Chris. The world loves us to get bogged down on moral issues that the unregenerate cannot understand. That is the battlefield the devil would have us fight in, and in so doing we make the gospel of grace a gospel of moral law. This woman showed courage in a compromising event. In 34 years of being a believer I have compromised from time to time. Cameras were not present.

Let us humbly pursue the approval of Christ in our personal lives, but when a professing believer comes up short let us have few words and much grace.

[Steve Newell]

John,

The love the World needs is the love of God shown through Christ on the Cross. We are all sinners desiring eternal condemnation for our sins. My worth is nothing apart from Christ.

The "love" the world wants is not this love but a love the condones their sin.

[sam]

I am sorry but where was Carrie's "bravery" when she lied on the contract that she signed where affirmed that she had never had semi-nude photos taken of her? Was she scared that if she had confessed and told the TRUTH about taking those pictures that she would have not been allowed to compete?

I just dont understand the rush among some circle in the christian community to lionize this woman. Why are some cricle of christians always doing this? I dont get it. All the while, it just re-enforces the world's view that Christians are a bunch of hypocrites.

Yes, applaud Carrie for saying what she did about marriage but why go any further than that and try to make her a poster girl for traditional marriage or a christian role model. Clearly there is a disconnect in her profession of faith and her lifestyle when she says that "she is a Christian and a model and models sometime pose in lingerie and swimsuits".

here is a helpful read as well:

http://www.christianpost.com/Society/Family_issues/2009/05/miss-calif-the-new-family-values-spokeswoman-07/index.html

[John C]

Steve...

Please, please, stop focusing so much on "sin", its been dealt with once and for all, God is not sin-obssessed, but love obsessed! Let me ask you a question, by hanging out with "sinners", was Jesus somehow "condoning" their sin? Or did He just love them...anyway?

We have got to give up all the religious, rule-keeping crap and get on with the true business of the kingdom, which is letting Him in us love them (and us) back to life!

I'm afraid we have missed the proverbial forest for the tree's.

[Steve Newell]

John C.

The basic human problem is that we are sinners and that our sin separates us from God. God's holiness demands that sin be dealt with. God's love is seen in Christ hanging dead on a cross.

You have created a false dichotomy. We can both love a person and condemn their sin. How many times did Jesus instruct someone whom he showed love to to "sin no more"? As a father, I love my children, but I will also condemn their sinful actions since I know that it is wrong.

The last time I checked, God still demands absolute perfection. How are you doing? I cannot nor do not love God with all my heart, soul and strength as well as love my neighbor as myself since this is Law and not Gospel. That's why I need to hear the Law and the Gospel constantly.

[C Irmen]

John C ~

You have missed the point of Jesus entirely. First of all, He did not "hang out" with sinners - He went to them to call them to repentance out of His great love for them. God is supremely holy, and can tolerate not one drop of sin from anyone. That is why Jesus went to the cross. Although the price for sin has been fully paid, the blood is not applied to the individual until s/he personally recognizes their sinful state before a Holy God and cries out to Him in repentance. Jesus never allowed sinners to continue in their sin unchallenged - because He loved them! Christians are charged with sharing the gospel in its entirety, which includes warning people of the consequences of sin. We are also admonished to speak up when we see a brother or sister in Christ engaging in sinful behavior - out of our love for them.

While we should not tar and feather Miss Prejean for her sinful actions, it is entirely appropriate to mourn over them, bring them to her attention, and pray for her repentance. If we truly love her as Jesus loves her, we will not ignore the sin but will encourage her to recognize it as such and repent of it. Indeed, we should do that for ALL of our Christian brothers and sisters. Sin breaks our fellowship with God - in love, we should do what we can to restore it. Harsh words - condemning words spoken in anger or with a self-righteous sneer are NOT what the Lord calls us to do. But we are to speak the truth in love, at all times.

You will find all of these truths within the pages of your Bible.

[David T]

John ~

All I am seeing in your comments is what is talked about in the Emerging Church now a days. Yes we are called to love....love our God and love our neighbors. But where does it say that we are supposed to not call a "sin" a "sin" anymore? Are we supposed to just sit back and let our brothers/sisters in Christ continue on in that lifestyle? How is that loving them?

Too often I see in today's Christian church's that you just have to forget about the word "sin" and "judging" and just focus on love. God does love us but He also disciplines us. Would not a loving Father discipline His child(ren) if they were doing something wrong? Yes He would. It says so in God's Word. Our Father is a loving YET just Father.

You may take this as an attack on you John but it is not. It is just stressing to see that people give up on love and all they do is judge judge judge unrighteously while in the meantime other people are all about love love love while ignoring the fact that sin is eating away at the people they are loving because they are excusing that sin just so they can love the person.

All the answers are in God's Word.

God Bless~
David

[Richard Abanes]

SAM: I am sorry but where was Carrie's "bravery" when she lied on the contract that she signed where affirmed that she had never had semi-nude photos taken of her? Was she scared that if she had confessed and told the TRUTH about taking those pictures that she would have not been allowed to compete?

RA: Sure. That's possible, I suppose.

But why not think up a few more possibilities that would not be so condemning? Why not focus more on extending grace, being understanding, giving the benefit of the doubt, and believing all things/hoping all things (see 1 Cor. 13).

Do you have the answers to ANY of these questions:

1. What was she thinking when she signed that agreement?

2. Might she have thought that the restriction was only for photos slated for publication?

3. Could she have thought this was for photos taken as an ADULT?

4. Did she even read with care what she signed (it seems plenty of people don't read what they sign as evidenced by the housing market crash and foreclosures)? From personal experience i can tell you that MANY of those kinds of agreements/contracts go virtually unread by artists/performers because they are approved by manager, agents, and others. (i.e., Sometimes you trust who you should not trust). Moreover, in one's willingness to move forward in a job, contest, pageant, TV show (or whatever), you just sign -- and don't really think to much about it (or read it all that closely). IT'S STUPID, but it happens.

Clearly, we have several alternatives. And the answers to these questions would shed a lot of light on why she signed what she signed. So here we are. And without concrete/verifiable answers, I would hope that we'd all err on the side of 1 Cor. 13.

Jesus died to free us from guilt, oondemnation, the law, rules/regulations, legalism, and slavery. And that same death paid for any errors, mistakes, sins, mis-steps, unwise judgments, flaws we have. PTL! He covered it all. let's extend to others that precious reality instead of being content with just having that apply to us -- that's all I'm sayin.'

Richard Abanes
http://www.abanes.com/

PS Good article, Chris. Well done.

[Richard Abanes]

JOHN: While we should not tar and feather Miss Prejean for her sinful actions

RA: I'm curious. Can you list these? Would you include: 1. Wearing a bikini. 2. Having breast implants? 3. Being in a beauty pageant?

I am not seeking confrontation or trying to be funny. I am truly asking. What "Sinful actions" are you talking about?

R. Abanes

[John C]

Steve,

My friend, you are still operating in the realm of dualities, making the critical mistake of "judging by appearance" in spite of Christ warning us not to "judge by appearances" meaning we cant trust what our natural eyes tell us because truth resides in the higher, unseen realm of the spirit (2 Cor 4:18) and as Paul says we are...NOT to look upon what is seen (its not trustworthy, not lasting, not the real) but to look upon the unseen (where TRUTH lives) eternal realm lest we believe our own eyes (pride) not seeing with spiritual (God's kind of) sight.

Its like this...2 Cor 5:16 Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer (either). We must lose the physical, historical Christ that went to the cross (and so did we, our old man Rom 6:6) for the true, spiritual, resurrected (in us) Christ.

It takes a long time for us to "unlearn" how to think (with our natural minds) the way we always have, Jesus told us to repent (translated as Metanoi in the original greek) meaning to literally have a new mind, His so we can "see" with spiritual eyes this "kingdom" that he said has already come. Otherwise we will hold to what our (natural) eyes "see" and call the lie (the flesh realm), the truth.

So Jesus, being the intersection of heaven (the higher, spiritual, undefiled realm where all is as it should be w/God) and earth (the lower, physical, fleshly, false and corrupted realm where sin still "appears" as if it is "alive" and true) said in the Lords prayer...may it be on earth (our existance) as it is in heaven (where truth originates). The question is...will we say Amen (may it be) along with our Lord to His prayer? This is what the cross accomplished, made things in our world what they are in His, do you "see" that truth, that wonderful work of His?

If we will dare "step up" to walk in that higher, truthful spirit realm we will no longer "see" the false, only the true...which is Christ within, the eternal One, the flesh man (adam) will then have truly died to us, in our reality/consciousness (kingdom within) and since a man always behaves like the person he thinks he is, then that inward truth will manifest in Christlikeness outwardly. Its beautiful, He is beautiful and He lives within us (Col 1:27).

So in this God's demands of "be ye perfect" is accomplished since He (and you) now only see Christ, the new man, the old is no more.

Blessings

[Brian of the Hill People]

John C:

The reason I and others constantly contest your position is because your basic creed is to ignore reality, ignore sin, ignore scripture that doesn't support your Jeffersons-esque movin'-on-up theoreom, and your worst conundrum: mixing grace with works.

As been said before in so many words by different people on this board, you do understand you promote gnosticism and that gnosticism is an enemy of the cross of Christ, right? I don't buy that you don't know what gnosticism is but even if you claims so, then go look it up and behold! there's your theology.

I also see a hint a Crystal Cathedral influence in your writing. Your worried about people's dignity (another word for pride), their self-esteem, etc. No. No. No. We worry about our Lord's honor, His glory, and the salvation of our sinful, unworthy neighbor's soul, knowing Christ having saved sinful, unworthy people like us.

*******************************************************************

Richard Albanes:

I know your question was to John but it caused me to have some questions. We're all sinners, we all need that gospel. But it looks to me like you have a different idea of what sin is. Let's find out!

1) Do you mean we honor Jesus in bikinis? If so, may I and a large group of friends attend your church in bikinis? Will your congregation promise to not stare or gripe, but applaud us as we honor Christ (we'll sit next to your seniors and encourage them with our vigor)?

2) Does a beauty pangeant honor men or Christ? Is it fleshly or spiritual? Do you think the overwhelming male audience that watches a pageant is giving glory to Christ or thinking about the women's flesh? Are they interested in the contestant's testimony or their legs? Be honest, we already know the answer.

3) Is it not sinful to tempt others to lust? Is it not sin to join with the world rather than be separate from it as Christ commanded? Is it not wrong to cause a weaker brother to stumble? Is a bikini the modest way a woman is exhorted to carry herself by the apostle?

Again, just curious how you define sin. I'm betting it's different than most of us. I'm not bashing Carrie. I'm investigating your passive agressive claim about sin.

[John C]

Brian...

When you say that I "ignore reality", please understand that "reality" is the very point of contention. Both heaven and earth (the spiritual and the earthly) cant be the truth, only the spiritual (heavenly) realm is ultimately true. It boils down to who are we gonna believe, our eyes or God's word? We need Father to restore to us the image of the heavenly man with spiritual eyes.

The only reason I can "ignore sin" as you say is because His finished (past tense) work on the cross has eliminated my previously hindering sin consiousness (Heb 10:2, 10:10) just like scripture said it would, and now, Praise God I have a cleansed, righteousness consciousness. Remember...as He is in the world so are we (1 John 4:17).

What has been the result of my renewed mind? Believing the spiritual over the earthly? Holiness, liberty, revelation and influence. Praise God, its all His doing, I have no self righteousness as you implied, you just can't imagine a world completely free of sin...but that's the very world (the heavenly realm) that Christ invites us to live in, His world in the here and now.

I hold to no creeds, no denomination, Christ is all. I do however have a tremendous testimony to the glory of God. I dont know what cystal cathedral means. "Church" is inward. External things are in the realm of appearances, the true fellowship is with Christ and He lives within us all. Col 1:27.

Blessings and light.

[Richard Abanes]

Brian: Again, just curious how you define sin. I'm betting it's different than most of us.....

RA: How much would you like to bet? And would you like to draw up a written contract so you can pay me after I define it?
____________
Brian: I'm investigating your passive aggressive claim about sin.

RA: Then, you're not really asking, are you? It seems you've already made up your mind about me and how I define sin -- i.e., probably some bizarre caricature of my views based on all manner of invented notions you have about using any number of rubbish rumors (or prejudicial assumptions).

If you'd like to read my thoughts on sin, I suggest you read my chapter "Natural Born Sinners" in Defending the Faith: A Beginners Guide to Cults & New Religions (pp. 105-118, 1997).

Or, you can read more recent statements by me on "sin" from a biblical perspective in light of the false New Age teachings about "sin" espoused by the likes of Oprah and Eckhart Tolle (see Chapter Five, "No Suffering, No Sin, No Salvation," in my book A New Earth, An Old Deception, pp. 131-156, 2008).

Both should be easily accessible: library, bookstore, online, etc.

R. Abanes

[John C]

Richard...

You are mistaken sir, I never said anything about Miss Prejean, somebody else must have.

Blessings.

[Richard Abanes]

JOHN C.: You are mistaken sir, I never said anything about Miss Prejean, somebody else must have.

RA: AAHHHHHHH.......John C. --- Many apologizes!!! MEA CULPA. I meant STEVE, STEVE, STEVE, STEVE.

REPOST............
____________________
STEVE: While we should not tar and feather Miss Prejean for her sinful actions

RA: I'm curious. Can you list these? Would you include: 1. Wearing a bikini. 2. Having breast implants? 3. Being in a beauty pageant?

I am not seeking confrontation or trying to be funny. I am truly asking. What "Sinful actions" are you talking about?

R. Abanes

P.S. No reason to call me sir. That's far too formal and makes me uncomfortable. My simple name will do. :-)

[Brian of the Hill People]

R.A.:

Howdy! I may go read your thoughts on sin to see what they are and if I have misinterpreted your response to Steve, via your questions to him. However, I notice you didn't actually answer my questions. Answering them could have easily, in front of everyone who happens upon these comments, exposed any poor assumption on my part for which I should repent.

I wouldn't trifle with breast augmentation as a sin. I'm sure there are those who do view it as such and those who do not. It certainly has no specific biblical text that directly answers that. But we are certainly told to do all things unto Christ's glory. So, in my perspective, motive would have to be known to prove it.

Wearing a bikini a sin? Well, again, what's the motive? Where's it taking place and who is it done in front of and what is the reason for it? Is it Christ-honoring? I'm sure a wife could wear a bikini with her husband on their private property, this seeming reasonable measure to ensure that the lady isn't willfully giving occassion for others to stumble. It isn't done to show off her flesh to the world, etc. The question would be, when it's done on TV, with potentiall millions of men watching, is that cricket?

Are beauty pageants sinful? Well, again, it depends what beauty we're talking about? Chaste, platonic beauty, or long legs and greasts? One potentially honors Christ, the other doesn't.

Your questions seem to indicate that you see nothing wrong in a christian woman surgically enhancing herself, to flaunt in a bikini, in a nationally televised contest where all the gals are revealing most of their bodies, other than those last remaining tidbits that leave little to the imagination.

If I'm wrong, and you were headed another way with your questions, I'll repent and apologize. If you think we do glorify Christ, wearing bikinis on national television, I'm all ears on how. I'm not bashing a sinner, we're all sinners. I'm curious as to how christians are defining sin. Is it merely the obvious, like I shouldn't rape and stab women or steal Cadillacs from senior citizens? Or is anything displeasing to God or that willfully shames the name of His Son, sin?

BTW, investigating requires the asking of questions. Surely we've all seen cop shows and whatnot. The part of your response that states, "Then you're not really asking, are you?" seems a bit intellectually dishonest. Asking questions is a valid form of investigating. And like a cop on TV, I have a hunch. My hunch could be right, it could be wrong. By investigating, I can find out. By asking questios, I can investigate.

And as far as your bet, I never bet you anything. I said, "I'm betting." You inserted yourself into the premise. Context is important. However, at this point, nothing has changed my leanings. I'll look into the sources you listed to investigate further. However, I reiterate, merely answering my questions could have gone a great way to shutting me down instantly if I was wrong in my assumptions, don't you think?

[Sylvia]

Mr Abanes:

I think the bikini thing would make one think twice in terms of choosing Prejean as a Christian role model, but in terms of "sinful actions", I think people are referring to semi-nude(topless, if I understand correctly) pictures for which she posed prior to the pageant(which likely would have disqualified her had pageant officials become aware of them at that time). She has defended the photos as being a part of her career as a model.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30576251/

I think that participating in such a photo shoot was sinful(and if she was really 17, shouldn't the photographer go to jail?) but that we shouldn't dogpile on her because of our own shame at jumping on the bandwagon and wanting to make her the newest evangelical sex symbol. The rules for false preachers who falsely preach publicly and whose teachings need to be rebuked publicly, are different from the rules for sisters who sin and need to be rebuked privately at first, in hopes that they repent and are restored.

[Richard Abanes]

BRIAN: .... merely answering my questions could have gone a great way to shutting me down instantly if I was wrong in my assumptions, don't you think?

RA: Truthfully? No.
____________
Sylvia: ...if she was really 17, shouldn't the photographer go to jail?

RA: That's what i keep asking myself and asking others. No one seems to know. I'm not an attorney, a judge, or a cop...so, I have no idea. Personally, I thought that was illegal!

I will quote Chris Rosebrough:"Despite Prejean's bravery, I do NOT consider her to be a Christian roll model. There are some obvious 'disconnects' and moral 'short comings' in her that I pray that as she matures in Christ that she will repent of. (JUST LIKE there are some obvious disconnects and moral short comings in MY OWN LIFE that I pray that Christ will open my eyes to so that I repent and receive His forgiveness.)"

This young woman needs biblical guidance, godly help, brotherly/sisterly love, understanding, patience, friendship, examples to follow, comfort, support, assistance in growth, a mentor, encouragement, direction, and hope. That's all I'm saying. I offer these passages as verses on which to meditate:

"Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand" (Romans 14:4).

"But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ" (2 Peter 3:18).

"...if someone is caught in a sin, you who are spiritual should restore him gently. But watch yourself, or you also may be tempted" (Galatians 6:1)

"I couldn't talk to you as spiritual people but as worldly people, as mere infants in the Messiah" (1 Cor. 3:1).

"...you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God's word all over again. You need milk, not solid food! 13Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness" (Heb. 5:12-13).

RA

[catransplant48]

Thought some of you might find this interesting:

"Beauty may well be in the eye of the beholder but in a country where a woman’s eyes are the only feature on public display, judging a beauty pageant could prove awkward.

For that reason the future Miss Saudi Arabia will not win on the merits of her figure in a bikini or her perfect skin, but will instead secure the coveted crown by dint of her devotion to her parents and Islamic values.

As of tomorrow 200 veiled hopefuls will start a ten-week process to find the winner of “Miss Beautiful Morals”, including a workshop entitled “Mum, paradise is at your feet”, a reference to the Prophet Muhammad’s dictum that respect for one’s parents is a foundation of the faith. “The idea of the pageant is to measure the contestants’ commitment to Islamic morals . . . It’s an alternative to the calls for decadence in the other beauty contests that only take into account a woman’s body and looks,” Khadra al-Mubarak, the event’s founder, said.

Unlike other competitions abroad, there will be no men involved at any stage in Saudi Arabia’s only contest for young women and it will not be televised, allowing the competitors to take off the veils and black abayas that cover Saudi women from head to toe. “The winner won’t necessarily be pretty,” Ms al-Mubarak said. “We care about the beauty of the soul and the morals.”

So......does this mean that in terms of the "beauty on display" aspect of most pageants the Saudis have it "right" and we have missed the mark?

For those Christians who are slamming Carrie Prejean for a poor decision made at the impressionable age of 17, what did you have to say when Bristol Palin announced she was pregnant? What did you say when it became crystal clear that young Bristol had premarital sex and was having a baby? Most everyone in the Christian community was ultra-forgiving. Can't the same grace be extended to Ms. Prejean (although if she knowingly violated any contestant rules in order to advance in the competition I do agree she whould be wise enough to give her title to someone else. Hopefully she has some caring mentors around her to advise her.)

I have a daughter who doesn't always make the wisest decisions, but she loves Jesus and He loves her despite her sins and moral missteps. Just like He loves me despite my own shortcomings.

And for those who look at womanly beauty from solely "the chaste, platonic standard", I invite you to reread the scriptures about Queen Esther and Song of Solomon. My husband certainly appreciates that I take care of myself and he gets "the whole package".

[Sylvia]

"Sylvia: ...if she was really 17, shouldn't the photographer go to jail?"

It just occurred to me that, if I'm not mistaken, public female toplessness became legal in my state(NY), about nine years ago (I have seen it practiced exactly once since then). I suppose that would mean that any woman of any age can be photographed in that state. Can that be right?

[beon]

Richard (I enjoyed your books on mormonism and end-times visions BTW),

Dressing immodestly is certainly sinful, as commanded against in scripture. The definition of what modest is, should be defined by the elder women in Prejean's church and they should counsel her on how to dress modestly (if they haven't already.)

I think you could get a mostly worldwide consensus that pageant bikinis are immodest, but other factors may depend on cultural expectations. In some cultures the nape of a neck or an exposed ankle would be considered immodest, where in the heart of the Kalahari a teeny frontal apron is an appropriate covering. As a representative of Christ, it is unfortunate for God's reputation that she would wear an outfit that would result in a public beating in amongst 50% of the world's population during an internationally televised event. Clearly, this hinders Christ's reputation amongst muslims and hindus who will assume that Christians have no modesty, when in fact we are commanded otherwise.
That said, this sort of instuction and determination is a designated responsibility of the mature Christian women in her church, who should use their excellent judgement and long years of wisdom to counsel her in modest dress.

[catransplant48]

Is the Christian woman who has had a mastectomy and opts for a breast implant walking the morality tightrope, since the world might think she is doing so out of sheer vanity? Should she care what the world thinks? Should she do so "for her husband" or solely for her self-esteem? Is self-esteem even essential to the Christian woman? Should it be?

Is Carrie Prejean's decision to have breast implants (waving aside whether or not she did it on pagaent money or not just for a minute) any more or less sinful than my decision to put on lipstick and eyeshadow every morning and put on something nice to wear to "enhance my beauty"?

The subject of beauty has been a taboo topic in most churches. I remember one of the first church meetings I attended in someone's home. One woman made a veiled remark that "in her humble opinion" I wore too much makeup. She wore none and could have used some in MY humble opinion!

I'm serious. It's a huge problem in the church. Many women slam their Christian sisters for trying to look presentable, for wearing makeup, for caring about how they present themselves, etc....and there is the other end of the spectrum: Christian women who look like they got married and gave up on themselves, sometimes (sadly) looking like they just rolled out of bed and into Bible Study.

Who is right? Are we wrong to care? Are we wrong NOT to care? Are we Christian women doing our spouse and or ourselves a disservice either way?

Again, do the fundamental muslims have it "right" by demanding that their women stay completely covered in public? At home these women walk around unveiled and free, many of the wealthy ones dripping in jewels and designer clothes and shoes, although if you saw them on the street you would never know. What is causing many young muslim women to reject wearing the veil and abaya? Is the creeping infiltration of Westernization actually suffocating muslim modesty?